Red sea running is a spite tactic that wastes both players time. Similar to how portal hopping doesn't result in the chaser losing any potential loot, red sea running should also not result in the chaser losing loot. A relatively simple way of implementing this is to have loot dropped in the Red Sea move to the edge of the red sea (maybe with some birds?) so it can be recovered by a pursuer. If implemented, there would no longer be the "I am denying you my loot" incentive to Red Sea Run, and hopefully we would see less of it.
Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running
@slarow sagte in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
Red sea running is a spite tactic that wastes both players time. Similar to how portal hopping doesn't result in the chaser losing any potential loot, red sea running should also not result in the chaser losing loot. A relatively simple way of implementing this is to have loot dropped in the Red Sea move to the edge of the red sea (maybe with some birds?) so it can be recovered by a pursuer. If implemented, there would no longer be the "I am denying you my loot" incentive to Red Sea Run, and hopefully we would see less of it.
I don’t like that tactic, but NO, it's still a legit tactic
If you see them going near the red sea, turn the other way and try to get them later@nex-stargaze "outsailing" feels like a strong word for turned the wheel and went in the direction that my ship is fastest in...
@lackbarwastaken said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@personalc0ffee it is laughably easy to make it unrecoverable.
If you're talking about the death wall, that is still recoverable. It is very hard, but it can be done.
@personalc0ffee I remember stealing mixel's first FoF key and running it into the red. Make sure the loot is on the bowsprit and bucket until you hit the wall. Man couldn't recover it. Spent a good long time trying. I've never seen someone do it properly and have it be recovered.
I think its silly when people believe that killing themselves is ever a good tactic. Most pvp'rs arent in it for the loot and some even just log off after you sink even if your loot is easily attainable. The whole preface of stopping you from getting my loot is silly since its not yours until its turned in and you end up wasting more time and pvpers don't get mad they think its an easy win and move on. If it helps people to cope by killing themselves rather than being killed who cares I say let them have their copium, they still lost.
I think instead of stopping it, we need a way to encourage people to stop playing [Mod Edit] and fight back.
Call it a legit tactic, fine
But it really isn't what the Red Sea is for and there really is no reason to NOT fight back. You lose your loot either way.
Fight back and practice then you can kill chasers.
But yeah, probably won't change. There's too many "pirates" who don't want to improve and would rather kill themselves so that they can come on the forums and whine about PvP and Portal Hopping.
@nitroxien said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@nex-stargaze "outsailing" feels like a strong word for turned the wheel and went in the direction that my ship is fastest in...
If you didn't perform a successful ambush and the enemy gets away, you lost the opportunity to steal. Direct combat is never something players want to engage in, especially when it's larger crew vs. smaller crew. If they know they've spent too long out and someone is hunting them down, they need to evade/create distance to minimize risk. If they go into a direct fight, they may lose. Yes, it's an attachment issue on their behalf, but look at it like this: They aren't gonna throw away all that time from PvE just to satisfy you with an easy steal cause they can't keep pressure due to number size, or the unfortunate skill issue.
As said before: no one owes you a fight, and it ain't your loot, since you haven't sold any of it. If they forfeit the loot they spent so long to get in order to make sure you also don't get it, that's fine by them and it's their choice. That's what "tools, not rules" can look like. Options as nuclear as the red sea are there because even the pettiest of sailors need to feel like they're winning in some way, otherwise they just quit the game cause they know they're helpless, especially as a sloop. (Also a lot of lesser-skilled players hate hoppers for obvious reasons so they're very spiteful, unsurprisingly)
On a very basic level, this game is a PvEvP sandbox with a set of guidelines and core values of how to and how not to play fair among the seas. There doesn't appear to be anything in the rules against such tactics, otherwise they wouldn't be tactics openly used and discussed here on the forums.
The way I see it, if whoever dug up that treasure decides that the treasure and the time they put into digging up that treasure is great enough in value to them that potentially risking it's loss in battle feels too great a risk - for any reason, including lack of experience, lack of interest in engaging, or wanting to experience the game how they want to and not being forced into playing how someone else wants them to play - then they have every right to red-sea their ship, loot, emissary, and resources.
Nobody should force any other crew or crew member to engage in any kind of gameplay they don't want to, and if the loot is yours then you have every right to decide what happens to it until the moment it belongs to another crew, at which point they get to decide. This is a very fundamental part of the game that we should all respect and cherish, the freedom to decide our own fate and gameplay.
Now, this doesn't mean that being chased or chasing someone for a large amount of time is fun or fair for any particular party, which does need addressing. Being chased excessively - to the point you feel forced to red-sea to return to the enjoyment this game brings - can be considered harassment at a very basic defining level, but where this level sits in the rules is up for debate and also off-topic from the OP.
I'm not entirely sure there are ways that could improve the "fun" for a crew that either wants to engage another crew in PvP who doesn't want to PvP, or for a crew that doesn't want to PvP that finds themselves being engaged in PvP. This game allows PvP, but it doesn't and shouldn't force it - this is one of the numerous reasons Arena's player count dwindled and subsequently caused it's demise. What I think shouldn't happen is persuers getting rewarded or - worse yet - encouraged to openly follow other crews for hours that are unwilling to engage unforcefully. Red-sea'ing has a pirpose, and shouldn't have that purpose be uprooted and removed.
A good suggestion would be for some kind of gameplay addition by the devs to replace it's use with a new, more fitting method that wouldn't seem as out-of-place as red-sea'ing does when compared to nearly every other gameplay element in this game. What this could be I'm unsure of, and a group of minds would be better than one, but forcing the use of a gameplay quirk to do something a portion of players use regularly seems like a fitting temporary-fix, but for a 4-year-old game, not including alpha and beta stages, this isn't as acceptable today as it used to be.
Thanks for listening to my Ted-Talk haha, and sorry for making you read all that. All openly critical takes and opinions are gratefully received and read. Thanks for taking the time out of your day to post here, love you all ❤️
There's a big difference between red-sea'ing loot versus bucketing/repairing so that you can defeat the mechanics of the game and get beyond the boundaries.
The former is totally fine and intended. It presents a risk if you want to try and recover the loot.
The latter, IMO, is an exploit that needs addressing. You are defeating a mechanic of the game to achieve something unintended. If you've ever done this, you're just as bad as the quick-swapping, X-bucketing, silent boarding spawn campers that you hate.
@realstyli said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
The amount of entitlement from PvPers has really gone through the roof lately.
I would say the same for PvE’ers, but the entitlement from them has been through the roof for ages!
@mferr11 I think most of the Red Sea complaints would stop if they did fix the whole going out of bounds thing.
Requiring a harpoon rowboat to in a finicky way sort of get the loot with their being an extra degree of difficulty if they did it right and put all the loot to the front… just is not a fun or good mechanics.
@realstyli said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
The amount of entitlement from PvPers has really gone through the roof lately.
Yup... 100%
I think the real fix is making the red sea relevant. Honestly the red sea should inflict enough damage so reaching the despawn wall isn't possible. Somewhere in between where it is now and what happens when you scuttle. Maybe a tier 3 hole every 1-2 seconds. The red is basically supposed to rip ships apart down to their beam, not tickle the crew until they hit the despawn wall. Sure players could swim a single piece of loot each into the despawn wall, but you will never eliminate the play style completely.
Easy mode loot floating back out of the red isn't the right answer to this. Buffing the red sea DPS absolutely is and fits the lore better.
@kommodoreyenser This. It shouldn't be possible to reach the despawn point. Whether that is achieved by more damage, a slow effect, or a mixture of the 2.
@personalc0ffee said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
I almost recovered loot from the red sea after they hit the wall. I was right there and the harpoon was grabbing things and I was putting them on the boat, but the drift barely tapped us into the death wall.
If it's possible to recover from it, surely adding a slow a short way before the death-wall just becomes an immersion maintaining feature?
@kommodoreyenser An idea I had proposed before was that any loot that goes beyond the boundaries gets turned into a map (or multiple maps if it's a lot of loot) on the quest board for that server. It would give the runner the chance to get their loot back and it would give the quest board a purpose beyond just collecting dust on the dock.
@slarow why should the chasing ship get any loot they didn’t sink the other crew the chasing ship failed to catch them and take the loot before hand and the ship being chased failed to fight back or lose the ship chasing them so no one gets anything seems fair besides you have all the tools you need to stop another ship there’s Cursed Cannon balls(anchor ball) and Chain Shot to bring down masts if you chase a ship to the point they head for the red you don’t deserve the loot
@otherfanboy said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@slarow why should the chasing ship get any loot they didn’t sink the other crew the chasing ship failed to catch them and take the loot before hand
If a crew scuttles before they are sunk, your logic would dictate that the loot should go away also, because the chasing boat also did not sink the ship. Your logic is flawed. The runner deciding to sink themselves before they are caught (be it in the red sea or via scuttle) should not mean the pursuer loses out on the loot.
@perigeebeme said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@ottyman8687 This thread was started by a pvper whining about the red sea.
I am complaining about a bad mechanic in the game that incentivizes lose-lose situations. Other than spite, what purpose is there in red-sea running?
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