Raiseable ship ladders for pvp balance!

  • @deathvessle none of that is saying get good. I literally suggested ways to improve your ladder guarding. No where did I insult you.

    I pick at your every word because your every word was pickable. There was so much wrong with it that I couldn't even condense it. And yet again instead of arguing any of what i said you just write ALL of it off because you know you really have no point.

    You take the 50/50 out of context. Its a 50/50 where I have to literally roll the dice on which side to board. that isn't balanced. You'd lose fights because you got unlucky. Its not exactly RNG because its player input but losing fights because you guessed incorrectly is a bad thing to enforce. Just because i wrote the word 50/50 doesn't mean its balanced. Winning a fight in a 50/50 means it had nothing to do with skill, it was purely due to rng.

    If you're gonna continue this please actually explain your concept and give reasons as to why my arguments are incorrect instead of just closing your eyes shutting your ears and saying ''if I ignore it hopefully it'll go away''.

  • @charge9316
    Three years aprox, im attacked constantly, lose probably 70% 200 sinks acording to this site.
    Like i have said im not a "sweat lord" ive seen my share of combat though, naval and deck. I enjoy both-ish.
    I am much better at naval. Again though this is not about me, its about strategic evolution and how it has hit a dead end.

  • @deathvessle said in Raiseable ship ladders for pvp balance!:

    @charge9316
    Three years aprox, im attacked constantly, lose probably 70% 200 sinks acording to this site.
    Like i have said im not a "sweat lord" ive seen my share of combat though, naval and deck. I enjoy both-ish.
    I am much better at naval. Again though this is not about me, its about strategic evolution and how it has hit a dead end.

    This hasn't hit a dead end, but more so it's at a fairly balanced state. Guarding ladders efficiently and killing boarders is a skill one must learn how to use properly, many have been doing this ever since they booted up the game and by now nothing about this has needed a change. The only people that want that change, are players that refuse to learn how it currently works because they feel as though they're above it or don't want to do it all the time. And many non-sweat lords call them out for it because that's completely imbalanced for PvP no matter which way you go about it, it only benefits 1 type of player: the lazy/incompetent pirate fighter.

  • @frogfish12 said in Raiseable ship ladders for pvp balance!:

    @deathvessle none of that is saying get good. I literally suggested ways to improve your ladder guarding. No where did I insult you.

    I pick at your every word because your every word was pickable. There was so much wrong with it that I couldn't even condense it. And yet again instead of arguing any of what i said you just write ALL of it off because you know you really have no point.

    You take the 50/50 out of context. Its a 50/50 where I have to literally roll the dice on which side to board. that isn't balanced. You'd lose fights because you got unlucky. Its not exactly RNG because its player input but losing fights because you guessed incorrectly is a bad thing to enforce. Just because i wrote the word 50/50 doesn't mean its balanced. Winning a fight in a 50/50 means it had nothing to do with skill, it was purely due to rng.

    If you're gonna continue this please actually explain your concept and give reasons as to why my arguments are incorrect instead of just closing your eyes shutting your ears and saying ''if I ignore it hopefully it'll go away''.

    In any battle you roll dice based on information available, its not unlucky, its strategy. You build your strategies based on the info. If youre info was inaccurate or you made a plan based on the unknown and you fail you are the only one to blame, not luck. like a game of chess not every move will be a check mate, it just seems everybody wants the 4move CM.

    To answer your questions about functionality.

    i liked the idea of one ladder at a time you still need to guard but can focus on more at once.
    They wouldnt be instant, 1 sec down maybe 3 up.
    Any one can interact, because thats just fair.
    You cant raise a ladder with a player on it.

  • @nex-stargaze said in Raiseable ship ladders for pvp balance!:

    @deathvessle said in Raiseable ship ladders for pvp balance!:

    @charge9316
    Three years aprox, im attacked constantly, lose probably 70% 200 sinks acording to this site.
    Like i have said im not a "sweat lord" ive seen my share of combat though, naval and deck. I enjoy both-ish.
    I am much better at naval. Again though this is not about me, its about strategic evolution and how it has hit a dead end.

    This hasn't hit a dead end, but more so it's at a fairly balanced state. Guarding ladders efficiently and killing boarders is a skill one must learn how to use properly, many have been doing this ever since they booted up the game and by now nothing about this has needed a change. The only people that want that change, are players that refuse to learn how it currently works because they feel as though they're above it or don't want to do it all the time. And many non-sweat lords call them out for it because that's completely imbalanced for PvP no matter which way you go about it, it only benefits 1 type of player: the lazy/incompetent pirate fighter.

    Lol lazy, incompetent, do you even dig up your loot? Or are you the guy who climbs the ladder to drop the anchor and steal 4+hours of someones time because you got them exausted ready for bed after a long lazy day of incompitent work and 4 hours of sea of thieves?

  • @deathvessle said in Raiseable ship ladders for pvp balance!:

    Lol lazy, incompetent, do you even dig up your loot? Or are you the guy who climbs the ladder to drop the anchor and steal 4+hours of someones time because you got them exausted ready for bed after a long lazy day of incompitent work and 4 hours of sea of thieves?

    The more you attempt to defend your position, the more you reveal that you aren't as diverse of a pirate that you want to believe and show you are.

    You're upset you lost to a pirate better than you, so you ran to the suggestion forums to make a suggestion that vents out your frustrations masked as an attempt to "Fix the balance of PvP". Sorry to say but this song and dance has been done several times and they end with a dropped anchor (on the thread).

    You suggestion could have had merit, but in reality it's just venting a frustration you, and very few people have that are usually just an indication of lacking skill. You'd see more threads about raising the ladders otherwise.

  • @nex-stargaze said in Raiseable ship ladders for pvp balance!:

    @deathvessle said in Raiseable ship ladders for pvp balance!:

    Lol lazy, incompetent, do you even dig up your loot? Or are you the guy who climbs the ladder to drop the anchor and steal 4+hours of someones time because you got them exausted ready for bed after a long lazy day of incompitent work and 4 hours of sea of thieves?

    The more you attempt to defend your position, the more you reveal that you aren't as diverse of a pirate that you want to believe and show you are.

    You're upset you lost to a pirate better than you, so you ran to the suggestion forums to make a suggestion that vents out your frustrations masked as an attempt to "Fix the balance of PvP". Sorry to say but this song and dance has been done several times and they end with a dropped anchor (on the thread).

    You suggestion could have had merit, but in reality it's just venting a frustration you, and very few people have that are usually just an indication of lacking skill. You'd see more threads about raising the ladders otherwise

    i want more strategies to become more practical in sea of thieves.
    I believe raisable laders could help change the flow.
    I am open to different ideas, and constructive criticism.
    Im closed to "get goods" and "learn to plays"
    I accept my limitation, acknowledge others limitations.
    Acknowledge imbalance in the system.
    This makes me undiverse, and venting in frustration.
    Because someone is better than me?
    Yup, i guess so. You got me.

    Everybody else
    Denys imbalance exists in the system
    Only wants 1 outcome in SoT combat, using the 1 strategies to get there.
    Other wise noone could ever beat you.
    Deny your own limitations, deny others limitations.
    Believe "get good"and "learn to play" is the solution to every thing.
    Offer insults to skills and knowledge.
    Offer no alternatives.
    Yeah i see your point now im incredibly wrong to defend my thought.

    I put my flawed thought here for thoughts and opinions, not out of frustration. Ive been here defending this because i believe in it.

  • @deathvessle Being unable to guess which ladder is or isn't down is not a fault of me nor was it because my information was inaccurate. My teammate could try boarding left ladder and see its raised, tell me that so I go right ladder, and find out they switched the ladders and now that one is raised.

    In any battle you roll dice based on information available

    That's not rolling a dice, that's making a plan based on logic. Rolling a dice means there's nothing you can do to increase your odds, having information to help you would increase your odds. For example if I know an enemy is Sword Blunder, meaning they are very close range, I can use that information to better prepare myself to fight. If I still lose that fight it wasn't because I was unlucky in a dice roll, I simply lost because I was beaten in combat even with my knowledge of their weapons. If they can swap their ladder in 3 seconds then there's physically no way any information is useful against a crew that knows how to swap their ladders. You would simply have to roll a dice every single time you try and board them with no information to help you. The only information that would help is if you deduce the crew is less experienced and don't swap their ladders. This is not the problem, as that kind of crew will never be an issue to beat in combat. The issue is crews that use the mechanic to swap their ladder to prevent boards. Not only does it mean they only have to guard one side, but it means 50% of boarding attempts are completely null simply because there isn't a ladder there. You don't even need to guard the ladder because they just cant get on. This goes against the idea of ''the point is to focus your attention on one ladder'' as half the time you don't need to focus any attention as they physically cannot board. Like at this point it'd be better just to only ever have one ladder, not 2 ladders they can swap. If there's only ever 1 ladder then you at least know its always gonna be there and you know where to go, not guess which side its on.

    When you start a fight yes you have no information available, as such you are just guessing based on anything you can such as gauging the cosmetics on the boat, the positioning of the boat (Such as if they are anchored with sails down, or unanchored with sails up). It is after this point where in every other case you gain information you can use to your advantage. You cannot gain information of which side to board as that constantly swaps.

    1 Ladder would mean its practically impossible to board from ladder, stick a blunderbuss on the ladder and they guard it fully, unless they miss, which would be a problem regardless of how many ladders there are. 1 Ladder gives a lot more room for Error which rewards bad play and means people don't learn from their mistakes. Nex said it really well, This concept is purely to help people who refuse to improve. You yourself said you lose 70% of fights, yet instead of learning from those interactions, you just want to make changes that make it so you cant lose in that way again. Its like if you die to a gun and say ''make guns have half ammo'' and your reasoning is you make up a fanfic where in Scenario 1 they miss 2 shots and are now out of ammo so you win, and Scenario 2 where they miss 2 shots but it doesn't matter, they have ammo and kill you. That is the EXACT same argument you are making. Instead of improving, you want to remove diversity of gameplay to make up for your own shortcomings.

    I do think there are ways that raising a ladder could be implemented but it would have to be very minimal. For example it takes 3/4/5 seconds to raise it depending on ship type, then it only stays up for a set period of time, and if you want to keep it up for longer you have to just have someone keep holding it up. This would mean that its not as braindead as remove 1 ladder, you'd have to decide when you think its worth doing it, and it would provide the enemy some counterplay, as the ladder would fall back down eventually and require someone to raise it back up or keep it held up. This would mean the person in the water can use their tools such as blunderbombs or Guns to attack the person holding it.

    As you currently describe it, there is no counterplay to their ladder being up, nothing you can do about it. Like look at other parts of the ship that can be altered, The Mast can be broken, the Anchor can be put down and broken, and the wheel can be broken. There's no counterplay for the other crew to break your ladder, forcing it down. Like what if there's a little wind up pully you interact that raises the ladder, this pulley can take damage from cannonballs like other parts of the boat. when the pully is broken it releases all of the ladder meaning the crew has to repair the pully and then wind it back up.

    Again, I'm not saying this idea is flat out a bad thing, as i have said multiple times, it simply needs thought and detail put in for how it can work. You wont convince people if you give them minimal information on the concept and just look past all of the major issues people have with it.

    Also you said you're closed to get good or learn to play. But in some ways these are real advice. yes you should ignore people who just write off what you say and trashtalk, but in some situations like this, it really is just a matter of you needing to learn better ways to deal with the game as it is rather than changing it. I suggested multiple ways at the bottom of my long post for you to improve your ship defence and guard your ladders more efficiently. This isn't me saying ''lol git gud learn to play'' this is me legitimately saying you need to learn how to defend yourself.

    Deny your own limitations, deny others limitations.
    Believe "get good"and "learn to play" is the solution to every thing.
    Offer insults to skills and knowledge.
    Offer no alternatives.

    I know you didn't say this to me, but it stands the same.

    • You do not have limitations, you simply refuse to improve. A limitation would be if you only had 1 hand and physically couldn't do the stuff everyone else can. Your limitation is your lack of commitment to learning in a game all about improving your skill.
    • I do not believe get good and learn to play are solutions on their own, however they can often be the principle of which to describe how someone can get past an issue.
    • I don't point out lack of skill or knowledge as insults, its addressing reasons you are unable to get over the issues you have in the game. If you lose 70% of fights and cant deal with boarders, this is solely due to a lack of skill or a lack of knowledge on how to deal with it. If it was purely do to imbalance then everyone would have the same issue, but clearly not everyone does. And its not just because we're tryhard pvpers, very few people have issues with the game, refuse to improve, and still stick with the game. Most people would just uninstall the game if they find it too hard and don't want to improve, you are very much in the minority in this scenario.
    • I offered Alternatives in the Long post as well as this one
  • I feel like someone is deflecting off of themselves with all of this name calling…

    Or just had a bad week, maybe?

  • @deathvessle said:

    RARE has created one of the best games ive ever played, millions im sure agree. Likely most if not everybody here.

    Meh, it's okay. It has its moments. 😅

    @frogfish12 Your idea of having a pirate hold the ladder is an interesting 1, but I don't think it would work either. While it does take said pirate away from other duties, similar to locking a harpoon, it still works effectively at preventing boarders - a pirate in the water can kill them, but by the time the ladder drops, they will, in all likelihood, already have missed their window of opportunity to board. So, it's not a true counter. Furthermore, the pirate on deck can easily be revived.

  • @galactic-geek Absolutely didn't think off that,

    I do however have a solution/rebutle to your problem
    You have the possibility off a mermaid
    or
    If(YourShip) = True (Player can can ladder down in the water)
    And/or
    https://www.seaofthieves.com/community/forums/topic/147157/harpoon-tight-rope-grappling-hook
    with this
    Then you merely, need your boat or a rowboat with a harpoon to have a chance, and you would have to kill people off their ship before you board
    which
    would ultimately change the game meta for ever and pvp player will have to become much more creative

    Summary,
    I think changing PvP meta is a Major good thing and making it incredibly hard to take over a ship will make the game much more xbox and swabbie friendly. Hence in favour off the Majority
    Therefore has my upvote for now

    Mr.StudPuddin
    Love, Peace & Chicken Greece

  • @mrstudpuddin just advocate for pve servers man stop doing these mental gymnastics.

  • @lackbarwastaken Thanks Matey,
    However, I feel the need to state my case in a more professional format

    Dove, Peice & Chuckin Good

  • @lackbarwastaken said in Raiseable ship ladders for pvp balance!:

    @mrstudpuddin just advocate for pve servers man stop doing these mental gymnastics.

    RARE is legit anchoring any pve server seperation threads immediately. They WILL NEVER devide us. We need balance.

  • I inadvertently thought of a way (the only way) I would support raise-able ladders. That would be if the ladders were an "always down" function, but could be raised IF they were being held.

    Think of them like the harpoon. You can only reel in or lock the line while it's being manned. Otherwise it has no tension or control.

    Same with my idea. You can raise the ladder like you pull up your mast and hold it up, but the moment that you let go, it drops back down.

    I still don't fully love it, but I could at least get behind it because there would be a risk/reward associated to the mechanic and it would be a balanced mechanic... though you'd really need to add more ladders to the brig/galleon to make it balanced across all the ship types.

  • @sweetsandman said in Raiseable ship ladders for pvp balance!:

    I inadvertently thought of a way (the only way) I would support raise-able ladders. That would be if the ladders were an "always down" function, but could be raised IF they were being held.

    Think of them like the harpoon. You can only reel in or lock the line while it's being manned. Otherwise it has no tension or control.

    Same with my idea. You can raise the ladder like you pull up your mast and hold it up, but the moment that you let go, it drops back down.

    I still don't fully love it, but I could at least get behind it because there would be a risk/reward associated to the mechanic and it would be a balanced mechanic... though you'd really need to add more ladders to the brig/galleon to make it balanced across all the ship types.

    This is why i put this here, not for insults to skill and get good opinions. Thanks for some real input.
    I agree, my idea was flawed, but ideas like help work around those flaws.

  • @galactic-geek said in Raiseable ship ladders for pvp balance!:

    Nice pirabbit. Happe easter!

  • #up/downgradable ships

    Iknow you alldont like this idea, but check out my other thread about up/downgrading ships.

  • Learn to defend yourself from boarding, simple. :)

  • @ll-atena-ll said in Raiseable ship ladders for pvp balance!:

    Learn to defend yourself from boarding, simple. :)

    Interesting, i could say the same, learn new ways to board.

  • Sure, we need a balance, and new ways to fight or scape i think

  • I've seen this suggestion numerous times over the years since release and I think it's time I gave my input on this subject. I've been around since day one and have put nearly 3k total hours into this game. With that being said, I'm going to use context clues and my prior game knowledge to say that you more than likely aren't really experienced in pvp or solo slooping. As a seasoned player in both of these categories, I firmly believe that this idea will do more harm than good.

    But for your sake, let's pretend Rare actually implemented this and you were fighting the same type of people whom you had used before as an example... How well would you hold up against them in a naval fight? From experience, I can safely say that 9 times out of 10, the "sweaty crew" that understands and knows how to board is also a crew that understands and knows how to naval. Albeit they may be a bit better at one or the other but that's besides the point.

    If you give people the ability to raise the ladders, you're not balancing the game. You're just changing the pvp meta from a board-heavy one to a naval-heavy one. Yes, some people may use the other, less efficient, boarding methods to board for a little while... but I guarantee you it will not be long before they start to realize that boarding just isn't the way to go about things anymore. The current pvp-meta shift would cause the good players to go from constantly boarding to constantly navalling. This would result in you still being sunk by them, only at a faster pace.

  • @rightharpoon said in Raiseable ship ladders for pvp balance!:

    If you give people the ability to raise the ladders, you're not balancing the game. You're just changing the pvp meta from a board-heavy one to a naval-heavy one. Yes, some people may use the other, less efficient, boarding methods to board for a little while... but I guarantee you it will not be long before they start to realize that boarding just isn't the way to go about things anymore. The current pvp-meta shift would cause the good players to go from constantly boarding to constantly navalling. This would result in you still being sunk by them, only at a faster pace.

    You made such a good counterargument that you made me want to support this idea just for the perk of naval-only fights. How is this even possible. xD

  • I'll throw in on the topic that has been talked about since the beginning.

    The problem I have with Retractable ladders is how it doesn't actual fix anything and only takes away the other options for players to fight. before I get into talking about an alternative, let me start with what this removes from the game. Long gone are stealth plays. Sure, there is other ways to get aboard, but boarding was the only practical one that didn't rely on an obviously easy eyesore (boat and rowboat) on the horizon. This categorically hurts sloop players far more than any other ship. Unless the sloop crew has a giant skill gap with the players they face, they don't win in a straight up fight. By getting rid of ladders, you force sloops to only have one way to deal a threat that isn't running. Sloops don't win direct confrontations unless the people they face are grossly incompetent.

    My other big problem with Retractables is it only makes fights stagnate. I've been the sweatlord in fights, I've also faced the sweatlords as well. When you meet a crew that is just as aware how deadly boarding is you find out real quick on how hard it is to actually get on their boat. They are all looking out for you just as you are for them. Fights go on long so the fight naturally becomes about naval. HOWEVER, this is where you learn a harsh reality of this game. Fights without boarding go on for a long time because naval is weak. What happens when you roll up on this crew and start exchanging fire? They take out a crew member maybe a mast, maybe they riddle you hard with holes. What are you going to do? Will you stay and just let it happen or will you disengage? Its easy to disengage in this game, just a hard turn in a direction and show your back. You repair and reengage while they do the same. Boarding forces their hand in those situations. Any crew with a brain won't overstay in a fight if they are losing. Only the bad crews do. You also can't rely on the perfect combination of Curses, Chains or whatever, because the crew you are facing may be able to do it right back. Fights against good crews rarely follow the fan fic you put forth, they are a living breathing opponent. They will adapt and give it right back.

    If you truly wish for this game to switch the Meta over towards more naval, actually tackle the problem. That being make it so ships can sink easier through naval only. Players board because its the best thing to do, that is a Meta. Change it so players want to stay on their ship instead wanting to leave and board. The best way to do this is make ship damage something you can't just shake off by a quick disengage. The easiest way to do this is to change values. Either make holes flow more water, buckets haul less water, or holes take longer to patch. Some or all of those, whichever.

    Change the Meta by driving the players to do the most efficient way to sink, don't take away their choices because you are weak in that area. Taking away choice should be the last thing a company does for a sandbox game.

  • @deathvessle You keep telling us to learn new ways to board a ship, but we know the other strategies. You keep acting like removing ladders will change the game, it will just make the other strategies (deckshot/ram) the only options.

    You need to realize that this idea is bad. It removes options from the game it doesn't add to it.

    The reality is that this would make it even harder for small boats and inexperienced crews. They would be most punished by the mistakes of forgetting that the ladder was up.

    Listening for audio cues that indicate swimming, grabbing the ladder, a mermaid spawning are all significany indicators that you should watch your ladders.

    Learning how to position yourself so that boarding attempts are more easily foiled is important. Using a blunderbuss to shoot from front to back of boat as an example ensures that they get knocked backwards a d don't have a chance at a regrab of the ladder.

    At the end of day, those same crews that would send a boarder and defeat on your boat are the same people that when boarding via ladder is removed will just keep everyone on cannons and turn your boat into swiss cheese. The truth about boarding is it speeds up fights. Fighting a battle of attrition isn't the most fun.

    Since you've only sank 200 boats and claim to lose most encounters you should work on different tactics. Remember the definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over and expecting different results.

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