Sea of Thieves Official Podcast Episode #5: Hot Topics Feedback

  • As a 40-something software engineer who also likes to play Sea of Thieves, this is what I heard while listening to podcast #5 - https://youtu.be/OuyScbzVeSE

    Server Issues: Sorry guys, we're just SO successful we can't keep our servers running! Actually it's because we keep chasing new features and ideas but never pay off technical debt and now it's catching up to us. But don't worry, our solution is to hire more people specifically to pay off the technical debt, even though this will almost certainly frustrate and burn out everyone on that team with an impossible task, but that way everyone else can still keep chasing new shiny stuff instead of doing boring things like fixing bugs they created.

    Hit Registration: Did you know how hard it is to calculate the physics for moving projectiles between freely floating objects? Fluid dynamics is hard! Oh, also our game generally has a fundamental hit registration problem besides that. Somehow our hit registration accuracy is intrinsically tied to server performance, so to fix this we're going to take the easy way out and implement hitscan instead. We'll then talk about how we're going to test this hitscan system for feedback, while simultaneously not talking about how we're removing the Arenas which would be the best place to test changes to new combat mechanics. This is because despite what we just said we are really only concerned with overall server performance and not the PVP combat experience with this decision, as we already know that competitive players generally hate hitscan because it makes it easier for players to cheat.

    Players Numbers per Session: The game was designed around a six ship population, but we've been running at five instead since server performance is so terrible because we don't manage technical debt properly while constantly adding new features. We even had a 16 player cap that made it completely possible for players to do the basic math and game the server mechanics in such a way where a galleon crew could go around bullying everyone else on the server because they knew everyone else was in smaller ships than them. Woops, sorry about that. Anyways we'll utter one sentence about upcoming architecture changes that are probably actually very important to this subject then move on.

    Cheating: All games have cheating, cheating sucks, but we don't really have much of a cheating problem in Sea of Thieves right now, even though we do take every report of cheating very seriously. Also woops most of our current reports of cheating are actually related to poor server performance. We'll openly admit that we hate dealing with the problem of cheaters in the first place because we'd rather be working on cool new stuff that creates bugs in our legacy code which we'll ignore until later. We won't even pause for a moment here to be forward thinking in any way and consider the potential impact of changing weapons to use hitscan and how this will likely make cheating an even larger issue in the future.

    The Future of Combat: We realize our player to player combat is currently pretty lousy. We'll ramble on for a few minutes here about how hard it is to get first person melee combat right, even though there are several other melee slashers we won't mention that were created by much smaller studios and have been out for years now doing this quite successfully. Then we'll allude to how we're basically outsourcing the creation of an updated combat system to a new team that doesn't even exist yet, which may or may not produce something in a couple of years or so. Will this line up with Skull & Bones eventually coming out? Stay tuned!

    Solo Slooping: As eternal optimists who have this rose colored lens through which we observe our community, we can't recognize that open crew matchmaking is so awful that many players would rather just solo sloop than deal with the often worse than useless crewmates they get matched with, or how after that person sets the ship on fire then leaves ten minutes later it could be an hour or more before someone else is matched back into that crew. We'll talk about creating a task force or feature team or discuss even creating an entire season of content to improve the solo sloop experience, instead of focusing on improvements that could be made to open crew matchmaking that would more beneficially improve the game overall, because that's a boring thing to think about working on.

    Spawn Camping: We start by misunderstanding the purpose of spawn camping, by assuming this generally happens to prevent a crew from repairing a ship to ensure that it sinks, rather than acknowledging how spawn campers will often bail your ship for you just to keep it afloat long enough to kill you again. Then we'll lament a bit about how the game seems to lack a referee to step in and address these spawn camping issues, despite us at every other time espousing a "tools not rules" approach to the game's design. We'll then vaguely tease that we're thinking about some big ideas internally to address this in the future before revealing nothing further meaningful and ending the podcast.

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  • Going off your interpretations I'm not really sure how you want them to communicate going forward.

    What are they supposed to do? be negative about it? be down on themselves? punish themselves publicly while they are trying to offer some information to the people that participate in the game?

    They do what they can do, try to be positive and move forward. It's all any of us can do when things aren't ideal.

    People don't have to consider it adequate and can move on from the game if the negative is outweighing the positive for their experiences but I'm not sure how they are going to please people with their podcast that go into it with resentment.

  • This passive-aggressive tone isn't going to help your case.

    If you'd have concerns and brought them forward in a legitimate way, people might take this post more serious.

  • personally i was at least expecting them to touch on tall tale hopping lvl 5 reapers as its has without a doubt been the biggest topic thats come up time and time again since it was introduced, even if all they would have said is that there not going to change anything. at least acknowledge the huge discussion (that you had to push off into a separate part of the forum and close down threads here) thats going on.

  • @artibyrd the hate is strong with this one.

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  • Rare are human beings. They're doing the best they can. I may be critical of some things they discussed, and some misunderstandings around some issues the community has, but I am glad they are open and transparent as they can be with the community.

    This kind of antagonistic post serves nothing but to put up barriers between the community and Rare.

  • Wow.

    I really don't like this thread.

    I don't think it offers any constructive feedback and it's very negative and passive aggressive. The tone is awful. It honestly reminds me of how I used to speak to some users back in the day before I got a nice little ban.

    I think we should weigh anchor here so the community can reflect on this.

  • Shrugs

    He brings up some fair observations. His tone could be better i will admit.

    Probably had a bad day and needed something to vent about.

    That's my two cents, carry on.

  • Thanks to everyone for reading and offering their interpretations of my interpretation on the podcast. The irony of telling me to be more friendly in an unfriendly manner is not at all lost on me, and to me is all just part of the core Sea of Thieves experience.

    I think the podcasts put too much of a positive PR spin on Sea of Thieves issues, in a carefully controlled environment where they even made a cheeky show of their censorship control on the discussion. I took the time to write my takeaways after listening to the podcast not because I hate the game, quite the opposite.

    Since Rare was making N64 games they've had a penchant for chasing the new shiny, and dealing with technical debt is new for them because this isn't a big problem you have with console releases but absolutely is a problem for an online game service. The way the PotC update was so massive but kept so secret that it couldn't be properly tested and was absolutely bug ridden on release was a catalyst to their technical debt related server performance problems. The undertone to the entire podcast in almost every segment related to dealing with current poor server performance issues.

    It's frustrating to see them have such a poor attitude towards addressing technical debt, several times throughout the podcast mentioning how they would rather work on the new exciting stuff instead, and essentially offloading their tech debt to a new team in an inadvisable manner. Believe it or not I would actually like to continue playing this game for a long time, but if they can't get a handle on dealing with technical debt and doing some of the boring architectural stuff better, their new shiny things will keep performing worse and worse.

    Also I gotta say having a discussion about moving to hitscan while also having a discussion about cheating in the same podcast where the two subjects never intersect is either an obvious omission or a concerning lack of foresight. Considering all their server related problems as discussed also appear to be due to a lack of foresight I don't think it's unfair to call that out.

    I do think the devs are also blind in some ways to their "community" and require a contrary voice sometimes to point this out to them. The players who interact with Rare on social media or participate here on the forums or chase after Twitch drops or show up for community day are not a fair sample of the entire player base, but Rare has this observation bias into a generally friendlier group of players that has bought into their concept of high seas comraderies. The way they described the problem of spawn camping wasn't even accurate as a result of this observation bias. Their understandings of the game's problems are skewed by their interactions with a targeted demographic aka "the community" and not by consideration of the entire playerbase and the actual average player experience.

    This combination of "community" observation bias, a penchant for chasing the new shiny, and a disregard for technical debt causes Rare to completely overlook a comparatively simple change that could substantially improve the average player experience by "just" reworking their open crew matchmaking. This is a completely tedious and boring thing to work on though. They instead have ideas for entire seasons of content for solo slooping that would be way more work to create and I'm sure would be lots of fun, but it's this sort of mindset to build a new feature to deal with a problem instead of going back to directly address the source of that problem that got them into their current mess in the first place.

    I do like when devs share background information with their users, but I don't like when they do so with such a PR spin using pre-screened topics, rehearsed answers, and no contrary opinions offered. There needs to be some space for somebody to disagree and express that they are upset with what they view as misguided design decisions or the deception and misdirection used to communicate those decisions. Hate me if you like but that's how I feel about it.

  • based take

  • @artibyrd This is a much, much better post and has fair and well articulated criticism and opposition. I like this post. It is also not coming off with a very negative or passive aggressive tone.

  • @artibyrd said in Sea of Thieves Official Podcast Episode #5: Hot Topics Feedback:

    I'm not sure what you mean by the censorship thing. They attempt to keep spam and repetitive fighting out of their social areas and don't tolerate a lot of personal attacks and insulting language but as far as opinions go I don't see the censorship

    I'm a pretty solid example of that on the forums. I post a lot and have a lot of opinions. I have a lot of disagreements with things regarding the environment. I've literally never been contacted or silenced about anything I disagree with. I just don't insult people while I'm communicating it and I keep it reasonably within relevancy of the threads I post in.

    Lots and lots of opinions and topics that people don't agree with me on or that obviously differ with how devs/mods feel. Environmental topics, social topics, etc etc

    I think often what is thrown in with censorship is actually the negative way in which it is communicated not the opinion itself. They aim to keep a pleasant place to be around and allowing a lot of spam and negative personal stuff prevents a pleasant environment. That's not censorship of opinions in my view.

  • As the old saying goes, you catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar...

    Your rebuttal was far better than your OP, to be fair. And you brought up some interesting points, but tone can make or break whether opinions are given the time of day.

    When it comes to how the podcast has a "PR spin" and is controlled, that's not unique. In the industry they're in and with Microsoft over them, there will be a lot of guidelines they have to follow. I think they threaded that line pretty well. They were as open as they could be.

    When I talk to the general public about my job, I can't say everything. There are things I can say to my colleagues in private that I can't say to folks outside my company.

    Regarding the censored joke, I got the feeling something was said that would have spoiled an upcoming feature that they don't want to talk about just yet - remember when fire coming to the game was spoiled live on a stream? Something like that.

    From an empathic point of view, they seemed nervous. I can't blame them, not knowing what sort of reaction the podcast would get around these topics and after a rather poor show on Community Day from a technical standpoint. So I think they were coming from a very genuine place when speaking - just very careful about what they said.

    They were coy on the cheating issue but Joe's statement about deliberately not sharing information about what they are doing was to be expected. Telling cheaters what they do to out them will only give them an advantage. It's something we don't need to know the ins and outs of, just that they acknowledge it and are doing something.

    We learned a lot more about the direction they are thinking about taking the game - hitscan testing, combat reworking, solo play. It's good to know these things early so we can give feedback and thoughts on them. Ultimately though, testing will be key.

    I don't disagree with your thoughts around hitscan and cheating being linked, I've said as much myself.

    I'm also a little bit concerned about how they see and are going to approach spawncamping as a problem. But, again, these will go through testing and we'll just have to see where they land.

    As for "technical debt", that's often a corporate thing. Again, remember Microsoft call the shots. Things like hardware upgrades take time, and they have to make a case for it with the moneyfolk upstairs, who will likely fight them on every issue (been there, done that, it's frustrating!). They've got to show that they are worth investing in, and I really don't think (as much as we love the game) it was in a place where they could plead the case for it being the GAAS that Microsoft should be supporting more.

    I don't think keeping PoTC a secret was a bad thing. Yes, there were a lot of bugs at launch but, in hindsight, personally I think, having it a big surprise that no-one really expected, ultimately made for a more memorable and impactful experience.

  • @wolfmanbush

    The censorship point was in relation to the edit on the podcast, which artibyrd linked. It was turned into a bit of a Sea of Tease moment, I felt.

  • @realstyli said in Sea of Thieves Official Podcast Episode #5: Hot Topics Feedback:

    @wolfmanbush

    The censorship point was in relation to the edit on the podcast, which artibyrd linked. It was turned into a bit of a Sea of Tease moment, I felt.

    they also mention opinions in the post

    It seems to me that the op is more interested in a debate style format with pushback but I don't see how that would do much on that platform.

    Imo that creates an unproductive situation where people are either accused of going too soft during the interaction or someone goes for gotcha moments where people can react with "destroyed, wrecked" etc

    That actually doesn't result in anything other than social games.

    In a situation like this there really isn't anything to debate. They are gonna tell us what they wanna tell us and people can value that or disagree with it or whatever but I don't see how changing it to a more intense situation changes anything about performance.

  • @artibyrd alt text

  • @artibyrd said in Sea of Thieves Official Podcast Episode #5: Hot Topics Feedback:

    As a 40-something software engineer who also likes to play Sea of Thieves, this is what I heard while listening to podcast #5 - https://youtu.be/OuyScbzVeSE

    Server Issues: Sorry guys, we're just SO successful we can't keep our servers running! Actually it's because we keep chasing new features and ideas but never pay off technical debt and now it's catching up to us. But don't worry, our solution is to hire more people specifically to pay off the technical debt, even though this will almost certainly frustrate and burn out everyone on that team with an impossible task, but that way everyone else can still keep chasing new shiny stuff instead of doing boring things like fixing bugs they created.

    Hit Registration: Did you know how hard it is to calculate the physics for moving projectiles between freely floating objects? Fluid dynamics is hard! Oh, also our game generally has a fundamental hit registration problem besides that. Somehow our hit registration accuracy is intrinsically tied to server performance, so to fix this we're going to take the easy way out and implement hitscan instead. We'll then talk about how we're going to test this hitscan system for feedback, while simultaneously not talking about how we're removing the Arenas which would be the best place to test changes to new combat mechanics. This is because despite what we just said we are really only concerned with overall server performance and not the PVP combat experience with this decision, as we already know that competitive players generally hate hitscan because it makes it easier for players to cheat.

    Players Numbers per Session: The game was designed around a six ship population, but we've been running at five instead since server performance is so terrible because we don't manage technical debt properly while constantly adding new features. We even had a 16 player cap that made it completely possible for players to do the basic math and game the server mechanics in such a way where a galleon crew could go around bullying everyone else on the server because they knew everyone else was in smaller ships than them. Woops, sorry about that. Anyways we'll utter one sentence about upcoming architecture changes that are probably actually very important to this subject then move on.

    Cheating: All games have cheating, cheating sucks, but we don't really have much of a cheating problem in Sea of Thieves right now, even though we do take every report of cheating very seriously. Also woops most of our current reports of cheating are actually related to poor server performance. We'll openly admit that we hate dealing with the problem of cheaters in the first place because we'd rather be working on cool new stuff that creates bugs in our legacy code which we'll ignore until later. We won't even pause for a moment here to be forward thinking in any way and consider the potential impact of changing weapons to use hitscan and how this will likely make cheating an even larger issue in the future.

    The Future of Combat: We realize our player to player combat is currently pretty lousy. We'll ramble on for a few minutes here about how hard it is to get first person melee combat right, even though there are several other melee slashers we won't mention that were created by much smaller studios and have been out for years now doing this quite successfully. Then we'll allude to how we're basically outsourcing the creation of an updated combat system to a new team that doesn't even exist yet, which may or may not produce something in a couple of years or so. Will this line up with Skull & Bones eventually coming out? Stay tuned!

    Solo Slooping: As eternal optimists who have this rose colored lens through which we observe our community, we can't recognize that open crew matchmaking is so awful that many players would rather just solo sloop than deal with the often worse than useless crewmates they get matched with, or how after that person sets the ship on fire then leaves ten minutes later it could be an hour or more before someone else is matched back into that crew. We'll talk about creating a task force or feature team or discuss even creating an entire season of content to improve the solo sloop experience, instead of focusing on improvements that could be made to open crew matchmaking that would more beneficially improve the game overall, because that's a boring thing to think about working on.

    Spawn Camping: We start by misunderstanding the purpose of spawn camping, by assuming this generally happens to prevent a crew from repairing a ship to ensure that it sinks, rather than acknowledging how spawn campers will often bail your ship for you just to keep it afloat long enough to kill you again. Then we'll lament a bit about how the game seems to lack a referee to step in and address these spawn camping issues, despite us at every other time espousing a "tools not rules" approach to the game's design. We'll then vaguely tease that we're thinking about some big ideas internally to address this in the future before revealing nothing further meaningful and ending the podcast.

    Reading this made me feel like a kid who just had his ice cream stepped on by a bully - I thoroughly enjoyed watching that discussion, and your negative outlook has tarnished that experience for me. Thanks... 😒

  • @artibyrd said in Sea of Thieves Official Podcast Episode #5: Hot Topics Feedback:

    Thanks to everyone for reading and offering their interpretations of my interpretation on the podcast. The irony of telling me to be more friendly in an unfriendly manner is not at all lost on me, and to me is all just part of the core Sea of Thieves experience.

    I think the podcasts put too much of a positive PR spin on Sea of Thieves issues, in a carefully controlled environment where they even made a cheeky show of their censorship control on the discussion. I took the time to write my takeaways after listening to the podcast not because I hate the game, quite the opposite.

    Since Rare was making N64 games they've had a penchant for chasing the new shiny, and dealing with technical debt is new for them because this isn't a big problem you have with console releases but absolutely is a problem for an online game service. The way the PotC update was so massive but kept so secret that it couldn't be properly tested and was absolutely bug ridden on release was a catalyst to their technical debt related server performance problems. The undertone to the entire podcast in almost every segment related to dealing with current poor server performance issues.

    It's frustrating to see them have such a poor attitude towards addressing technical debt, several times throughout the podcast mentioning how they would rather work on the new exciting stuff instead, and essentially offloading their tech debt to a new team in an inadvisable manner. Believe it or not I would actually like to continue playing this game for a long time, but if they can't get a handle on dealing with technical debt and doing some of the boring architectural stuff better, their new shiny things will keep performing worse and worse.

    Also I gotta say having a discussion about moving to hitscan while also having a discussion about cheating in the same podcast where the two subjects never intersect is either an obvious omission or a concerning lack of foresight. Considering all their server related problems as discussed also appear to be due to a lack of foresight I don't think it's unfair to call that out.

    I do think the devs are also blind in some ways to their "community" and require a contrary voice sometimes to point this out to them. The players who interact with Rare on social media or participate here on the forums or chase after Twitch drops or show up for community day are not a fair sample of the entire player base, but Rare has this observation bias into a generally friendlier group of players that has bought into their concept of high seas comraderies. The way they described the problem of spawn camping wasn't even accurate as a result of this observation bias. Their understandings of the game's problems are skewed by their interactions with a targeted demographic aka "the community" and not by consideration of the entire playerbase and the actual average player experience.

    This combination of "community" observation bias, a penchant for chasing the new shiny, and a disregard for technical debt causes Rare to completely overlook a comparatively simple change that could substantially improve the average player experience by "just" reworking their open crew matchmaking. This is a completely tedious and boring thing to work on though. They instead have ideas for entire seasons of content for solo slooping that would be way more work to create and I'm sure would be lots of fun, but it's this sort of mindset to build a new feature to deal with a problem instead of going back to directly address the source of that problem that got them into their current mess in the first place.

    I do like when devs share background information with their users, but I don't like when they do so with such a PR spin using pre-screened topics, rehearsed answers, and no contrary opinions offered. There needs to be some space for somebody to disagree and express that they are upset with what they view as misguided design decisions or the deception and misdirection used to communicate those decisions. Hate me if you like but that's how I feel about it.

    What @PersonalC0ffee said.

  • Please avoid engaging in personal arguments and derailing the topic of the thread. It is fine to debate the content of the post, and the viewpoints therein, but disrespecting any of your fellow pirates personally is against the pirate code, and our forum rules.

  • @triheadedmonkey said in Sea of Thieves Official Podcast Episode #5: Hot Topics Feedback:

    Please avoid engaging in personal arguments and derailing the topic of the thread. It is fine to debate the content of the post, and the viewpoints therein, but disrespecting any of your fellow pirates personally is against the pirate code, and our forum rules.

    Wait. Who exactly are you addressing? 🤔

  • They talk a lot, but in fact there is nothing.

  • @artibyrd said in Sea of Thieves Official Podcast Episode #5: Hot Topics Feedback:

    several times throughout the podcast mentioning how they would rather work on the new exciting stuff instead

    It's also what players demand. When the fan base doesn't get a mega update of new content every few months, players get super salty and disgruntled. The devs are trying to keep the community happy and the game prospering. Fixing player matchmaking isn't going to keep players coming back, which is why it isn't a dev priority.

  • I recognize my OP was a bit of an antagonistic hot take, because I am a bit filled with vinegar over recently announced changes to the game, and it's difficult to convey how upset I am about it with a honey filled post. My last two weeks of playing this game have been made absolutely miserable by their announcement to remove the arenas on short notice, and the subsequent madness that has ensued in the arenas that have all but ensured it will be impossible for me to finish the commendations in the remaining time. So yeah, it's a little maddening to come from that situation to a podcast where they are conjecturing about changes two years out involving a new team that hasn't even been formed yet.

    Now that I've calmed down a bit, I do see some positives in between the negative spaces in this podcast. As someone who really enjoys PVP in Sea of Thieves, Rare has left me feeling pretty abandoned as of late. Removing the arenas with short notice, reducing the number of ships on a server, moving to hitscan... these all feel like Rare is basically giving up on the PVP side of the game. In reality, I think all of these things are actually just related to technical debt, and it just happens to affect PVP the most. The fact that they acknowledged that the player to player combat is janky and bad, and that they are planning to basically task an entire dev team to attempt to rewrite the combat system from the ground up gives me hope we could see a new and better arena mode come back with that in a couple years.

    To clarify what I mean by "technical debt", this has nothing to do with hardware or money at all really, but is about a development team's attitude towards addressing issues with the existing code base vs spending time working on new features. Any known bug that can be fixed or any planned improvement or optimization that could be made to the existing code instead of working on new features is part of technical debt. Developers need to pay off this debt by putting in the time to address these items instead of working on something new and shiny all the time.

    The problem seems to be that everyone at Rare wants to work on the new shiny of course. They lack the discipline and procedures for dealing with the concept of technical debt that is absolutely required as part of an iterative development life cycle needed to maintain an online game. This is probably a result of Rare's origins in console game development where tech debt is not a very significant problem, but it becomes a huge issue once you have an online service model instead.

    Of course it's normal to want to work on the new shiny. It's more fun for both the developer and the player, right? Of course it is. But what's not fun is when tons of players can't log in for community day because you spent too much time working on adding fireworks instead of addressing known server performance issues. This is the sound of tech debt catching up with you.

    There are reasons putting a team specifically in charge of addressing your technical debt is a very bad idea. This team will likely have little to no context into the issues they are assigned to resolve, making an already tedious task even more frustrating by all the extra background research they'll have to do to even familiarize themselves with the code around it first. A team like this gets burned out very quickly, especially when they see everyone else around them gets to work on the fun stuff at their expense. This creates high turnover, but there is also a long training time required for new members on this team to get up to speed, meaning this team will inherently struggle with low efficiency. This creates a further bottleneck in dealing with technical debt and will likely result in the tech debt backlog only getting longer instead of shorter.

    A better way to deal with technical debt is to have all of your developers working on technical debt for some small percentage of their time throughout the development cycle. Each dev will have their own insights into bug fixes or optimizations they could make to improve the game based on their particular experience and area of the code base they work in. Rare should foster a culture that encourages all of their devs to chase these small improvements the same way they encourage their devs to chase new features and ideas. Offloading the dirty work to a special team is not the way.

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