@thathappyhat said in Remove or drastically change "Double Gun" strategy:
@xultanis-dragon Yes I see what you did there, I'm upvoting that post specifically bc of that.
Anyway, I only resorted to personal attacks because you wouldn't take in any information we're giving to you. Your entire argument against the double gunning "exploit" video that azlentic showed you was that he didn't aim down sight the second time. One reason for that may be because he decided to show you the SPEED of the SHOOTING. The only reason he ADS'd the first time was because that's absolutely necessary in sprint cancelling. Takes a second or so to aim, and so it takes longer to fire. It literally doesn't matter. What he did was fire as fast as he could in both the first and second time, and there wasn't a difference. So your argument there is absolutely pointless.
Not really a reason though is it?? Using personal attacks after your attempt to come to an understanding fails means either you have no faith in what you are saying or you feel as if you are losing the argument. I only do it to respond in kind. Also it was like 2 replies. All you said the first time was "everything you just said was wrong" and then the next reply and then the personal attacks. Since you want to just move on from it then fine lets let it go then.
No, my entire argument was before his video and it was even before this thread.
Saying "sprint cancel isn't worth it" doesn't work if you are choosing specific situations when it is or is not worth it.
This game has quick scoping. PERIOD. Anyone who has played CS, CoD games, I think battlefield had it can't remember, and the mass of over games, quick scoping is used to fire guns meant for long range at close range. Its also meant to fire guns that have horrible accuracy hip fired to better accuracy quick scoping.
"It takes time to ADS even if its quick scoping" - If you have time to square up your screen you have time to ADS. Most pistol/blunder combo shots are survivable unless the blunder is almost point blank. The reason why PvP'ers use blunder/sniper is because they can shoot from a far distance with ADS blunder and then kill shot with the sniper or visa versa, get the sniper shot then snipe with blunder. You only have to hit with 3 pellets to kill with sniper/blunder combo.
So quick scoping is in the game. True or False.
It is beneficial if you need to ADS with the second gun, True or False.
To pull out your weapon when swapping it is faster to sprint cancel it, True or False.
You can sprint cancel and ADS fire your gun at the same speed it takes to hip fire both guns, True or False. Which this point right here SHOULD BE THE PROBLEM.
You love the company, I see. Interesting, lol. Think about this: Everyone against you is using facts, evidence, reasonable arguments, and acting like educated people. However, if not you yourself, then certainly some people on your side are doing quite the opposite. This means the people on your side are extremely uneducated and immature. You must see how this makes you look.\
How am I not using facts?? Is anything I just said a false statement?? Is it??
That is the problem ain't it?? Uneducated and Immature, again broski, you were doing so well, be careful with the pot calling the kettle black moment.
Name one reasonable argument that you have made so far about this discussion in relation to mine. Have you?? I've discussed the changes made to the combat due to failed attempt to balance around a single loudout, I've discussed how these changes effect combat and how its changed combat over the years. You have said pretty much along the lines of "If you good it doesn't matter". Thats a paraphrase but pretty much close.
Neither have the other 2 you quoted in your one reply. One was argued with me in another thread saying that you can't sprint cancel anymore, got a video that showed that YES you can and the difference between sprint cancel ADS sniper was .2 seconds, which in gaming is A LOT OF TIME. Yet then the argument changed to, "well as long as you don't ADS its the same".
You said that combat isn't a joke, yet again no frame of reference. Compared to how it used to be, combat is a joke.
I made a claim that if they made sword mandatory pretty much no one would leave. You disagreed. However, no one would leave. Meta changes have been made in other games and quite severe ones at that and the PvP'ers of the game just adapt and move on, they find the new meta and use that one. Yes the backlash happens but they ultimately move on and find the new meta and just use that one, until the next patch and the next meta and the next patch and the next meta, so on and so forth.
I also claimed that the PvP'ers would use any meta as long as it was the strongest one, not the most skillful. Unfortunately that is also very true. That is proven throughout gaming history. Which is why most PvP'ers and most gamers generally in a competitive setting will not use low tier builds. You might have the one off here and there but that only works because no one has experience against it, once they do that type of tactic is completely shut down afterwards.
PvP is about competition. Trying to win against the other player. Meta literally means Most effective tactical Advantage or Most effective tactics available.
If you are using the META then you aren't using the most skilled or challenging build are you?? To use the most challenging build would be something like pistol only or sword only or even blunder only. Something that has a high punishment value for even one mistake.
Current Meta is sword/sniper or sniper/blunder. Sword/sniper has been around since the launch of the game. Why is that?? The one weapon that is arguably the most used in the PvP circle is the sniper. A long range weapon being used as a swiss army knife. Close range, mid range, far range.
Is any of that false?? No.
You made a comment in a previous post about sword balance. How they made it easier for players to use and how the range is far for that reason, how the balance failed because of it.
How do you what the reason behind the failing on sword is? You weren't around. You claim the sword range is farther than the blade when that is false. Blade aside which is about what half the height of the character? Extra range because of the arm that swings it. It should be about a 6ft range. However, it use to be longer shortened it a long time ago when they introduced players being able to move at full speed while swinging at the same time.
If you are getting hit from way away, thats server or latency. When I play on my friends server, players are hitting me from like 5 characters away. Its my hitbox lagging behind. My character is moving, my hitbox is taking its sweet sweet time. However, that sword reach issue is server related and internet related.
They changed sword so that sword users who catch DG users can actually kill them. Before that it was very punishing for sword players to miss the hit or to miss the DG if they were bunny hopping away. If you missed and they got away from you, that was pretty much it, you were going to die as they turn around reloaded and shoot you.
The speed debuff from swinging the sword was murderous and if you missed it was even worse. Then there was the part where players were sword tanking hits while firing, reloading, then firing again and STILL surviving sword tank.
Players would get hit 3 hit combo, have the gun reloaded by the time the 4th came in and got the kill shot. If not reloading then they would just eat through the damage and once the combo knocked them back they would run away again freely.
All of the changes to combat since the first time has been in a way to rebalance AROUND double gunning. The changes made to swapping weapons, the changes made to sword ESPECIALLY, the changes made to the damage. They removed the stun and then readded it but it seems that its been removed because lord knows it doesn't ever work for me anymore. Still get hit through my combo. Which is AMAZING. The way the characters move, interact, the clunky behavior, the problems with blocking. All of it because of them trying to rebalance around it.
Obviously Rare isn't capable of making it work so just remove it and do something else. Hell if they remove it and make combat better and then in the future want to bring back the DG load out then so be it. Combat might be better polished for that to happen, however right now they are just reworking AROUND it.
No offense but the part where you say you use logic, I don't understand in what way you have done that. You have no knowledge of the previous builds and have only played what is current right now. Since you haven't experienced the difference how can you logically claim that combat isn't a joke compare to someone who has experienced all the changes??
And yes, you did imply it. Of course you did. Saying I'd "Throw a hissy fit because I can't get my wins". I'd say that's implying that.
So in short, no, no one would leave. You wouldn't leave either. You would throw a hissy fit because your easy go to win isn't avalaible anymore and would then go to the forums and write angry threads about how you will leave and then after a month so you'll still be threatening to leave while still playing. --
That is what I said, in response to you saying "many people would leave" So I said no one would leave and then indicated that you wouldn't leave either. I separated the context right there. PvP'ers and then you separately. Could I have worded it better to make sure there were no misunderstandings?? Most definitely, however, no implications of you being a double gunner or PvP was intended. Only that if a change that you didn't like happened to combat you would still play while throwing the hissy fit.
Oh and just to clarify I'm not saying that I don't do the same thing. I am a PvP'er and usually when I address PvP'ers I address myself in the same sense more often than not.
"Where in any of my replies did I say DG was OP??" ... WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING HERE THEN???
My stance is that the games combat has been changed, balanced, and worked around solely for double gunning. Not just the double gunning exploit/sprint cancel, quick swap, whatever nonsense. Double gunning as the load out.
One of the very and I mean VERY few times, and now that I think about it the ONLY time, Rare has taken a no budge stance is when it comes to the double gun load out. Which has hurt their game.
When a company tries to work around a single meta they cripple themselves in what they can and can not change. They limit what they can and can not do because they have to be very careful to not over buff or over nerf a single area.
So far the ONLY changes they made have been to make sword stronger so that the difference between DG and sword wasn't so outrageous and tried to add a hard delay to fix quick swapping which they never truly removed so they added a hard delay in quick firing, which is still faster with the sprint cancel if you are ADS'ing which everyone ADS's.
I just watched a TON of PvP montages for Arena because that seems to be some of the argument is that players don't ADS. I could have just misunderstood what others have said, yet it would seem that even on sloops and on islands players are ADS'ing with the pistol and even in some cases sprint canceling. So how is hipping firing a thing because in almost every single video which I counted at least 6 I don't think I saw a person hip fire once.
However, I want is for them to make sword mandatory and just revert a lot of the changes back to the way it was originally. Sword combat was cleaner, more about mind games, positioning, actual blocking and side stepping, stuff worked because sword back then wasn't a monkey jumping mess. It wasn't just hitting through each others combo's. Bunny hopping like crazy to hit over guards and yada yada yada.
They could finally make some niche changes to pistol, blunder, and sniper without having to worry that they are going to making the guns too strong. Sniper currently is used as a close range, mid range, and far range weapon.
Thats fact that the sniper is highest tier meta. Its the main weapon of choice for almost everything. Its not SUPPOSE to be but it is. Again far range weapon used in close range.
They could also add new potential weapons just in case. Companies have made changes against the wishes of the PvP community multiple times and the games have continued on, metas got changed, and in some instances when the company realizes the change that they did wasn't a good one, they simply revert back.
The sword meta is the Reinheart swing which is AWESOMELY stupid.
What I enjoy is balance. Not a majority of the combat just being work arounds and exploits.
I seem to love protecting double gunning? That may be because unlike you I enjoy variety, and like it when people are able to play how I want to. I would be arguing even longer and harder had this thing be about sword being removed. Don't you see? You don't like to take other people's opinions into this, and you think everyone is like that. Most intelligent people aren't like that. I'm not.
No, I like variety, what I don't enjoy is exploitations and the combat being janked up to keep a load out in the game instead of just removing it. I don't mind taking opinions, however, the only opinion being offered is "no you are wrong" or "you can't sprint cancel" show a video that proves you can "well its not needed if you just hip fire".
If you actually listened to my opinion you would have understood where my stance on everything was and why I wanted the chnage as I had stipulated it multiple times.
Again this could have just been a miscommunication or maybe just a misunderstanding. Could have just use a blanket on me "oh someone who does like DG, let me go ahead and get my spreadsheet response". If so I hope I have at least explained my position enough that you'll understand it and actually consider the opinion this time.
"I even reiterated my stance on multiple occasions WHY they should make sword mandatory." No. What you did was repeat the same (already defeated) arguments over, and over, again.
Negative, none of it was actually defeated was it?? Neither one. Instead the goal line was pushed.
"Sprint cancel is in the game" - No its not - Video gets linked with millisecond time - Well its pretty much the same if you just hip fire. Sprint cancel is useless when you can hip fire.
When no one hip fires. "You hip fire in close prox, you don't TDM so you don't know, you don't know what you are talking about" - Watch videos of TDM'ers - almost every shot with everything BUT blunder is ADS. Even pistol and a lot of it was sprint canceled.
"So you see the video, it shows sprint cancel and ads'ing is FASTER" - So what, just hip fire its the same.
Not defeated broski, you guys just kept avoiding it. Also the videos that were linked had no counters on it. When things are done in milliseconds you need counters. This is gaming, everything hangs on the balance of just .2 milliseconds. Majority of PvP changes in A LOT of games are done in millisecond increments.
.2 is A LOT in gaming.
Again, what argument has been defeated and how has it been defeated??
You also happen to keep bringing up the fact that all I apparently do is scour your arguments for grammatical inconsistencies, although I only did that once. I also concede the point that it was useless.
That was more of less to keep you on your toes. Once someone makes that argument then you literally can not make a single mistake in your replies :). Not to mention you were the one who kept replying about it. "Should proof read" "if you don't have time to proof read why bother playing". Like I said, I respond in kind. You keep it going, so do I. You attack, so do I. You want to admit the actions that you took and just want to move on and let past be the past, I admit I did the same and drop it in a heart beat.
I also concede the fact that I gave my own cheap shots. Though I already explained it was because you don't seem to pay any attention to anything else anyway. Which is obvious by this post, since 70% of it seems to be you responding to absolutely nothing factual (because you know that you're wrong bro, sorry about this but there's literally no way you can win), instead commenting on my insults.
I will also concede that I did the same, even in response I still took cheap shots.
Everything I have said is factual. I do not believe I am wrong because I haven't heard a proper argument.
Anytime I make this stance all I get is "well just double gun" or "Hah guess someone is crying cause they died to double gun" or "hah just a sword bot who can't beat double gunners, noob". Not exactly those words but along those lines yes?? How is that in any way about the argument or anything?? Thats almost exactly how the argument always goes no matter what I say thats what players will use.
Also, again, nothing I said was false. Sprint canceling is in the game. Its faster to sprint cancel to ADS and lets face it, no one hip fires so using that argument is useless. Maybe some of the players here don't sprint cancel but thats not my only beef. Its how they changed combat over the years to work around double gunning which again IS TRUE. How they changed, why they changed, all of that is true.
So again, how is anything I'm saying incorrect??
"I'm under the impression you misspoke here because that's usually not how that works is it??" I want to know what you mean by that. I'm bad at double gunning, and you obviously main sword, so should you win that would mean that DG is not OP.
You suggesting that I use sword while you use DG for a fight. You are arguing for DG being easily beatable or even just beatable, regardless of that you have no incentive to win when losing benefits your argument.
So I was under the impression you mispoke.
"What mark?? lol." Um... as in what I said was correct, or at least close to correct? Thought that to be obvious...
Sorry I miss that one.
"I don't argue for the upvotes. If you argue for them that's* fine. You seem to be the type of person who needs the approval of others... The only approval you need is your own." Very supportive. Appreciated, however I do not argue for them either. It is simply that people agree with me, hence the upvotes, and they do not agree with you, hence the lack thereof.
Could also be that players don't want anything to do with this thread. A lot of players don't want to argue with a certain individual in this particular thread or on this particular subject as the person in question has been labeled a troll and just a real mess to argue with. Most of those players won't touch double gunning threads anymore because of it.
However, support is subjective ain't it?? Your ideas are in line with many individuals however they have no upvotes. Since they agree with your position but have no upvotes does that mean that particular position is actually not supported?? Just particular individuals upvoting you??
Who knows, again don't care either way. If you don't and I don't then does it need to be brought up again??
You can and you will because it used to be better. By that you mean that the sword was extremely easy to get kills with? Sounds a little like a flipped version of the argument we're having now, don't you think? How you say that people only double gun for easy wins? And are angry that they changed it so that the sword no longer means easy wins? Hm. Might wanna think on that one.
No, sword was cleaner and more responsive. Current sword is just everyone jumping around, hitting through block, hitting through combos, hit regs, swords NOT even blocking.
Sword originally was more skilled based. You ever play The Culling?? Not exactly like that but you know how fighting was between pushing (there was no pushing in SoT), blocking, and attacking?? How if you were REALLY good you could take down multiple players without getting touched??
Yeah something like that. Side stepping was crucial and used by the good players, blocking actually attacks worked BEAUTIFULLY because of how the sword mechanics worked with the character movement and everything.
You can use side step now but its not as important anymore as sidestepping moves about the same speed as moving and swinging. Still helps but not to the degree of how it use to be.
I got to play with a better mechanic and they changed it to garbage. Has nothing to do with winning or losing. We had something good and because Rare wanted to keep the problem child in the game they tried to work around it and failed.
I also want to point out what you did. Remember when I said that usual replies are "you just mad you died" or "you got killed now you want it changed".
Yeah again, thats not the reason. If you had something that worked really well and they changed it and then made it worse, could I also reply with "hey so are you sure this isn't because you are losing now?? Just have to get better broski". If you played games long enough you probably ran into an instance where something got changed for the WORSE and they kept going with it because they didn't want to admit they made a bad decision.
Yes, this is about the part where I went all caps so that you would notice it. And you said you didn't understand it, even when it stood apart from everything else. That bit is obvious enough. And yes, I'm a PVP lord. That doesn't mean that I never ever do PVP, I do a lot. Actually very frequently. I just do PVP more and enjoy it more.
No, what I didn't understand was why you told me you were a PvE lord when I had never implicated that you were a PvP player. I didn't understand your goal there. If it was just to let me know you were a PvE player then congrats??
The majority of it was defending your play style against me when again I made no indications against you. As the subject matter was PvP and double gun. Not you or your play style. I was talking with someone else, you replied and I thought we were talking about the subject matter.
So I was confused as to why you needed to clarify or defend your play style as I never mentioned it or directed towards it.
There is nothing to respond to in this next segment.
"Everything I have said has* made sense". I should have specified. Either doesn't make sense or is simply just so incorrect that we cannot believe you would seriously believe that, implying that your train of thought doesn't make sense.
You have actually said absolutely nothing. Again, you haven't stated anything. I want you to go over your reply and direct me to where your stance and mine are in debate. I see mine as I have stated many times.
All I see of yours is "no you are wrong" or
"dg or sword is not OP" when I haven't said that
"You are just mad you died to blah blah"
Dude you haven't specified or explained anything. I at least specified my stance with what I've seen in game, what I've seen in the past, and knowledge of I have of the PvP group.
You haven't actually said ANYTHING however.
The only time you actually said anything remotely debatable and not just a direct comment towards me myself is this
The only reason he ADS'd the first time was because that's absolutely necessary in sprint cancelling. Takes a second or so to aim, and so it takes longer to fire. It literally doesn't matter.
Which is false. Aiming doesn't take longer. If there was a delay when trying to ADS I would agree however sprint canceling and quick scopping make ADS's easier and more accurate to do then just hip firing.
Again this is experience and first hand knowledge of quick scopping in other games and even the videos of players ADS's in TDM and on Ships and every where else.
No one is hip firing. Any good player would quick scope or quick ADS and then fire.
Which the video PROVES is at the same speed if not faster.
So again, how exactly are you right??
Yes, combat has been the exact same. More or less. Like I said, doesn't matter that I didn't play back when you did. Doesn't matter how it used to be. It works now if you have the skill.
Doesn't work now, its still garbage. It was better in the before and that does matter. I'm sorry but you have no frame of reference and I do. If I say it takes less skill now then it did back then who would be more right??
Oh wow yet another "no frame of reference". This is getting old. Flattering? It's not flattering for me? Lol ok.
Just saying.
Again! You say that you've never said that DG is OP! Do you realize how stupid this makes you sound? There's literally no reason at all for you to be arguing this point then!
If you paid attention you would have why I am making the argument. I have said it so many times in my last reply and in this one. Why you are still saying this makes absolutely no sense.
"Ahhh yes the 'you must be a blah blah' argument". Um, yeah, when people act the same as people who do something, typically it means they do that thing.
Then can I make that same suggestion towards you?? Be careful not to go back down that road again. I thought you were done with it.
"When have I EVER said that?? I don't experience hit reg on guns??" Listen, buddy, not everything is about you! I'm not only replying to you, but to everyone on this thread who shares your opinion! Plenty of others have argued that point.
Have they?? Then why did you direct it towards me?? Should have done better to say that, but if that wasn't directed towards me then its dropped.
"?????" Elaborate.
No. I agree it doesn't matter what these people think of you. But they do think that. And that's because you're wrong.
Others think things of you and your supporters and thats because of other things. However, what I say is true and all you have done so far is say nothing.
"you are wrong" - Again no stance whatsoever.
"That you need help?? Thank god." Lmaoooooooo I take it back. You do your fair share of cheap shots. Nobody ever said I needed help but you. I already told you. I apologize for sounding rude, people like you just frustrate me.
Yes I do, like I said in the beginning of this reply, I respond in kind and even I admitted that I took shots with you too. Your time line is screwed or am I missing something??
I replied, you reply with your apology and IN that reply you are angry over the post?? If you typing and apologizing then continue reading and then get angry over my reply how does that work exactly?? You have me really confused at the moment.
OH wait, you meant this -
I want to say to be clear, I don't mean to be rude, I get frustrated though, in some cases like this.
First off you didn't reply to "me" with that statement. So I had no idea you were even talking to me especially with how you were responding. Finally, there was no actual apology in there.
"I don't mean to be rude" is a phrase you use when you are being direct with someone and blunt. You were doing WAY more than just being rude.
So, I never saw that because you didn't reply it to me.
Either a misclick or brain fog on your part?? Eh, anyways like I said at the beginning of this I will also drop it and since there was a possible miscommunication I will also let go any thing else in your current post.
This segment requires no response, as it's yet another repeat.
Again with the no frame of reference. By everyone, I mean just about everyone arguing in this thread. You also seem to ignore everyone except me in the threads, which shows that you're avoiding the evidence OTHER people are giving as well.
Not everyone in this thread is on your side. Also the person or persons you are referneces also started....oh hey around the same time. Hmmm....are you friends by chance?? Eh Who cares, if you are you are if not then not.
Back to the point.
Neither you or the other 2 have know what the game was like before hand. One person in particular in this thread who will be nameless has been titled a troll by many a poster here because all they do is argue without actually making a point or having an actual stance.
I have been replying to you because you have been replying to me. I replied to others that have replied also. I might miss a few here or there but I generally try to. I have replied to the ones in question and I even linked a video that show cases the timing way better than a blank video. Remember, .2 seconds might seen instant but in gaming it a very very long time, so a video with no timers on it can't really be trusted can it??
Particular person in question I have asked for videos multiple occassions yet no video. I have also asked for what the program he uses to test these things and no answer. Just tells me he'll do it. However that was in the previous thread.
@limend also posted his video and with suggested times. Which is a lot better than what your friend did. With only a side by side comparison.
Except what I said was still found to be true was it not?? The only argument used was "you don't have to ADS plus when you ADS it takes longer to fire because you have to aim". Really?? Quick scopping is almost instant and when you have almost a full second to aim after sprint canceling, I'm sorry but which way is better??
Again, remember there are games that have been notorious for quick scopping and those companies have made it harder or removed it completely from the game.
And no, I don't mean buffoon. Unlike you I have time to correct my mistakes.
Well buffool isn't an actual word. Urban dictionary doesn't count.
However this is probably in response to earlier in this reply so I'll just wait and see what happens.
And I have not seen you explain your poor typing other than that you don't have the time.
I said I had a disability and I said this to you and the fact that I don't have time to proof read everything I write. I mentioned this. Now I only mentioned it after that grammer comment. However its been said in the past on the forums in other threads. Not a lot of them. If someone asks why my typing is so jacked up I explain it.
Its hard when you are used to typing at 120 to 140wpm and then suddenly drop down to 70 to 90 and even that is a struggle. Except my hands still remember what to do, just no one told them they can't work at that speed anymore. My mind works faster than my hands do. If you are a typer you know that you type what you say in your head and your hands try to keep up. Except my hands can't keep up anymore and my mind hasn't slowed down ever to make up for it. Sometimes I can catch it other times I can't.
I doubt you'll ever bring up any facts yourself, just get mad at my irritation and talk about frame of reference.
I have done nothing but use facts. Again though this might probably be because of earlier which again, if you were directing towards me you should have REALLY replied it TO me. First off didn't see it and secondly even if I did I have no idea who you are saying that too. With how you been responding to me I could have figured this is how you normally are since it was pretty much from the start.
That phrase, however, is not an apology. An apology is an apology. Which you did in the beginning which I did as well. So again, balls in your court how you want to continue this.
I've stated my facts and my stance MULTIPLE times. If you read your past remarks you'll see you haven't done as much as you you think you have.
SIDE NOTE
(I linked a video before the current one that is linked) Well lost it, happens when you don't save your history. eh the one I linked was posted in February but had wall banging. That has been taking out though, meaning that video is using footage from a while ago. As I can't accurately time exactly when the clips were taken I removed it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k0jZTwk-9M
This one has tons of instances of sprint canceling to ADSing pistol, sniper, and I even think blunder lol.
