Remove or drastically change "Double Gun" strategy

@stundorn But still, aren't the tryhards the toxic players we don't want in the community in the first place? They're bad apples that spoil the entire barrel. Most new players I come across are nice and chill, but our alliance came across new players in a galleon that were harassing us for the whole game.

No reaper flag, hardly any skill, they focused on boarding our ship and hitting our sloop/galleon with firebombs and even resorted to spawn camping, despite not being any good at it. The point was, they acted incredibly toxic to us and it began taking its toll on our crewmates when we just wanted to do a silver vault. It took sinking their ship four times at Devil's Ridge and a speaking trumpet telling us to stop in order to leave us alone.

That kind of cowardly "playstyle" isn't the way to introduce new players into the game, and I think that those guys, who have said they only played for two days, may have come across tons of toxic players employing those strategies.

I understand that Rare needs to make money, but every toxic player who leaves is a handful of new players that will stay and will enjoy the game even more.

@stundorn said in Remove or drastically change "Double Gun" strategy:

@goldhear7

This Community insists on "let everyone play like he want to" and this includes beeing toxic, spawnkilling , exploiting (animation cancels etc...) and also cheating (FoV Cheat) accepted by Rare and doing nothing when lots of streamers and also the popular ones let followers hop Servers for "content", exploit, cancel animations, show others off and make jokes on their costs and recently edit game files to get a 120 FoV cheat advantage.

Showing off and animation cancels are fine and I don't consider either of those things as exploits. Maybe spawn camping is fine too for all I know, but animation cancels are an advanced technique that only provides a minor advantage. I've never been upset at people doing cancels like that in Smash Bros.

Rare does nothing really, as a Founder i finally realized and accepted that the "good sportmanship" Rare tells us to be important is only a doublestandard and a marketing phrase, else they would do something.

Even if it's a double standard, I agree with it, so I will uphold it no matter what. And I welcome any players who are sick of the behavior to stand by me and follow my example. I know for an absolute fact that there are pirates out there like me because I have already met them and will meet many more as I continue play.

But as i said the majority of this "community" is toxic, cheesing and exploiting by themself and play it all down and tell you to git gud aka adapt and learn to exploit yourself, start cheating...

It's dishonorable and cowardly to hold a crew down while you take their stuff and/or waste time with them to ruin their gameplay. I will give any crew worth its salt the chance to defend itself or sink trying. That is the way I play.

I dont play anymore because of this.
I watch forum a little, but honestly already lost any hope.
Rare seems to be ok with it so i need to make a decision if this is still fun and worth my time.
Actually it's not, because of the stance of the Community and Rare about this.

Fun fact: Running with loot juggling was fixed and they kept it ingame because people complained facepalm
This is where they show what they want.
Money and high numbers playing regardless of their Game working correctly or as intended or gamers gaming the system cheese, exploit and cheat.

As a player, as someone looking for a fun Adventure and good sportmanship during PvP i cannot accept they allow that many players and streamers to have their exploitive playstyles allowed and even catered to.

You may leave if you wish, but I will continue to refuse that view and not give up on the game. It's too much fun. When I stream, I'm going to teach players how to deal with those cowards, so new players have a fighting chance to make their mark. I will always respect new players and win sea battles with nothing but unrivaled skill.

I welcome toxic players to try to ruin my day, because in the end, they'll always be wasting their time with me. They're cheating themselves, not me. They'll never see my greatest treasure, because I've hidden it somewhere on the Sea of Thieves that no toxic player can access, not even by hacking the game.

Everyone has the opportunity to find my treasure whenever they play, but only the best pirates will find it. It's always in the game and it will remain long after I'm gone, so good luck searching for it. I can assure you, a toxic player will never know how to even start searching, so their loss.

If Rare wants to be hypocrites about their community standards for money, they are going to get what's coming to them if enough players act out about it. You don't have to accept the double standards, but we are a community, and there are players out there looking out for people like you.

If you do come back, I hope we meet on the sea one day. I will do my best to respect all players a little better than I did before, those with noble souls and brave hearts. Don't stoop to a toxic player's level and show them that they're irrelevant.

If it's overpowered then use it.

@stundorn Dude The problem here is calling everything an exploit. According to your theory of piracy we should be sending well though out and articulated warning message to ships we encounter, and ask nicely for their chests. Than have a tea party

This ain't no Sea of Friends, this is Sea of Thieves. We are pirates. If your ship is on the same server as mine, it means its fair game anyway I see fit.
Whatever in-game mechanics had been put in place I will use it.

Double guns are one of them and if you did not want to take time and put effort to learning this skill than its on you.

@jadescissors32

He's right, almost everything in this game is some type of exploit. Double gunning animation canceling which was proven via video to still exist and acts faster than not using it.

There are ways to fix these issues just Rare refuses to do so.

Honestly, now that I think about it, Rare hasn't fixed a single thing until its become a problem. Double gunning originally was ignored by Rare even though they knew about it, until EVERYONE started to use it. So they fixed it.

Its almost if their business sense don't fix it till it broke and because of that mentality we have this hot mess of Sea of Glitches.

How sad is it that the player base of your game just accepts glitches as part of the SoT experience?? Their is NO faith in the development team for this game anymore.

They should have just made sword mandatory and that would have fixed everything. Combat is so garbage now.

@stundorn

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, this is just a correction on the invulnerability.

The 3 to 5 second invulnerability they added was really bad. They didn't remove it because xboxers were taking too long to load in.

They removed it because players were re-spawning and immediately killing attacking players or catching their anchors while we could do anything to stop it.

Could their be ways to do it right?? Definitely. Does anyone trust Rare to do it right?? HELL NO lol.

I agree with you on Sea of Exploits though.

@goldhear7 said in Remove or drastically change "Double Gun" strategy:

@stundorn But still, aren't the tryhards the toxic players we don't want in the community in the first place? They're bad apples that spoil the entire barrel. Most new players I come across are nice and chill, but our alliance came across new players in a galleon that were harassing us for the whole game.

No reaper flag, hardly any skill, they focused on boarding our ship and hitting our sloop/galleon with firebombs and even resorted to spawn camping, despite not being any good at it. The point was, they acted incredibly toxic to us and it began taking its toll on our crewmates when we just wanted to do a silver vault. It took sinking their ship four times at Devil's Ridge and a speaking trumpet telling us to stop in order to leave us alone.

That kind of cowardly "playstyle" isn't the way to introduce new players into the game, and I think that those guys, who have said they only played for two days, may have come across tons of toxic players employing those strategies.

I understand that Rare needs to make money, but every toxic player who leaves is a handful of new players that will stay and will enjoy the game even more.

Also I want to point out to you that the most toxic players I have ever met were the PvE players. I still believe that a lot of the toxicity that players complain about were brought on by themselves.

They get attacked - "HEY WHY CAN'T YOU LEAVE US ALONE EXPLETIVE EXPLETIVE EXPLETIVE" - This is before the attacking ship has any chance to say anything.

This has been my experience almost exclusively. Most PvP'ers trash talk but we all understand its part of the language. Its just competitive banter, whenever one us loses or wins we say our GG's talk about the fight and leave cordially.

PvE'ers are the only ones thats I run into that go off on that mic before I even say anything and they get even worse.

So don't even try that nonsense.

SIDE NOTE

If you want proof, just look at some of the PvP streams. The streamer doesn't even say anything and the PvE players go off the walls. You see it all the time on the streams so don't pretend for the SECOND that its only PvP'ers or that its mostly PvP'ers.

Pointing fingers without looking in the mirror.

DG has been a strat in this game for years and there’s always been a way to easily counter it. Back when people first started using it tho it was much harder you had to use pure skill or knowledge of the area you’re in. You would have to memorize the layout of the fort or ship to hide from this and wait till they had no ammo and had to get more before you attack. That was when DG was unbalanced. But now with all the new additions and nerds and buffs all you have to do to counter it is hide behind ur mast or something and bait shots, wait for them to reload and blunder them in the face or sword vortex them. And if you’re in spawn camp all u have to do is jump off and start blunder bombing your ship. It’s easy to counter of you’re smart enough to figure it out.

@mcgarnaglewolf said in Remove or drastically change "Double Gun" strategy:

DG has been a strat in this game for years and there’s always been a way to easily counter it. Back when people first started using it tho it was much harder you had to use pure skill or knowledge of the area you’re in. You would have to memorize the layout of the fort or ship to hide from this and wait till they had no ammo and had to get more before you attack. That was when DG was unbalanced. But now with all the new additions and nerds and buffs all you have to do to counter it is hide behind ur mast or something and bait shots, wait for them to reload and blunder them in the face or sword vortex them. And if you’re in spawn camp all u have to do is jump off and start blunder bombing your ship. It’s easy to counter of you’re smart enough to figure it out.

Nothing has changed, only the load-out. Instead of pistol/sniper players are using blunder/sniper.

Still the same ol double gunning. Sprint cancel into shot. Its easy to use if you know how to do it, hiding against it is debatable.

Now this isn't to say I'm happy where sword is either, however, I understand that sword is a by product of double gunning.

If they just make sword mandatory and revert a lot of the combat changes they made back to launch mechanics the game would be 100000000x better.

Sword combat was so much cleaner and then they could finally do some minor or major changes to the guns without feeling like they need to worry about double gunning.

@xultanis-dragon I’m talking about really early DG the old sniper pistol machine gunning DG lol.

As many people have already said here, it's on you that you never learned how to, or didn't choose to. You have every opportunity to learn how to double gun properly, so complaining here about it being overpowered is useless. If a double gunner is managing to repeatedly kill you there is a problem with the way that you're fighting them. Have you tried any sort of in-game mechanic like bunny hopping with a sword to throw off their aim?

Never complain about something being overpowered when you are able to use it yourself. I promise you that it's not as easy as it sounds, nothing is in this game.

@mcgarnaglewolf

I know. I was saying that double gunning was still in the game and even if the old machine gun isn't around anymore. The new meta is sniper/blunder which is just as annoying to work with.

The best part is that the double gunners of the past and those that are still present used to say that blunder was the noob weapon. However, when sword got buffed the double gunners couldn't afford to miss that pistol shot anymore so they switched to blunder. They go for the spray and pray and then finish off with sniper.

They need to just make sword mandatory. Combat has been changed and rebalanced to work around double gunning and fixing double gunning. The current combat is garbage compared to how it was at launch.

Also I forgot to mention that even if you have blunder bombs, if you are being spawn camped the worst thing you can do is jump into the water. The blunder bomb tactic will only work if the player is a scrub.

@stundorn You had been crying about everything in this game. Have you considered that maybe its not all those other people and its just you?

Animation cancels are not exploits, they are in-game mechanics and no, gun cancel no longer works as people think it does. If you want to believe otherwise than its your issue.

120 FoV is not exploit, editing files is. I have super -Wide monitor and I can see more than people with standard monitors. . Much much more than standard 4:3 monitor. Thats why I bought it because all the XBOX games now support super-wide monitors. Its the whole point of Super wide monitors.

Emissary log voting ? You mean having half votes and leaving game or jumping island by island to take down emissary ? neither is exploit, both are cheese game-play, just like spamming M1 with sword.

Alliance Servers are not exploit, They are cheese way of playing, but they are also gold mine for PVP people. You get on one and there could be 1mln payday. I love getting on one and wrecking havoc. If people wants to have 5 ships in alliance than so be it. Not really your concern.

Server hoping is not an exploit. Its part of the game, and have its uses for game purpose. Just because you have no use for it or don't understand its purpose it does not mean, it should not be used.

Those play styles based on so called exploits that you are talking about, are only in your head.
Using in-game mechanics is not an exploit. No matter how many times you repeat. Haven't you realized maybe the reason why Rare is not fixing any of them is because they don't share your grumpy approach to their game ?
Either get better at the game or accept your shortcomings. Take me for example. I will never be better than 12 year old Double Gunning, bunny hoping all day game machines, using every in-game mechanics possible.
I accept that,and I am not going to be old man yelling at kids to get off my lawn.
What I can do is try to keep up with them and play their weakness.

Calling everybody and everything exploits and hacks is the ultimate bad sportsmanship.

Your claim about 2000 games somehow being different is complete BS.
Let me give you some history lesson.
Battlefield 1942. -sail battleship to the corner of the map, have sniper on the top of the hill spam spotting on enemy and spawn camp whole team with non stop, incoming battleship rounds until game was over. Do You know how many people cried about that on the forum as exploit and bad sportsmanship ? Now one of them could have taken submarine and go around to find battleship and sink it, but they were too lazy.

Battlefield Vietnam - take Chinook up super high let your team be able to jump, and skydive behind enemy lines. This was one of the sources of tears on forum. Because you constantly was having to defend your own lines and getting your tanks stolen and used against you not to mention constant spawn camping with land mines.

Battlefield 2 - Use SU-34 to spawn camp with carpet bombing, just fly low over aircraft career or enemy airport to rearm and back at spawn coming. In fact I got so good at it, I could just have plane on constant loop over their airport and rearm after each round spent. It was raining carpet bombings. Two planes with two skilled pilots were making impossible to spawn. Forum was filled with requests to Nerf Su-34, and ability to rearm mid flight. EA reduced height so to rearm you had to fly super low, all that did, it made spawn camping only possible for those much more skilled.

@illbushido305

Negative, no one would leave. That is a horrible misconception and a very big threat lots of PvP'ers make but never follow through on.

There have been countless games that have changed their meta with the threat of players leaving and what ultimately happens is that no one leaves.

When sword was buffed there was a small span where double gunners switched to sword because it was so strong. Then everyone realized what a hot mess sword really was. Even if you block with sword and get a good hit and good position, the players you are hitting will just hit you through your combo. The hit registration on the sword also became a problem. Then they realized that they could just use sniper/blunder and switched back.

I mean lets not pretend here, PvP'ers will use the easiest meta to win and then trash talk like they are the bee's knees. It was never about skill, its always about the number 1 meta. Throughout history it has always been about the meta. Whichever meta was the all around king was the one they used the most. The second that got changed they found the new meta.

Original combat especially sword had a high skill ceiling. Baiting, mind games, blocking and side stepping. It wasn't a monkey hopping mad rush it is now. If you don't believe look up videos from 2018 and look at how sword worked.

What PvP'ers want, what PvP'ers always want is a way to kill noobs consistently. An understanding that if its a new crew you are going to trash them hard until they get better. The current state of the game makes that almost impossible unless you are double gunning and even then if you get caught with sword you might die unless you got a mass pineapples.

If I could sword dash with guns I would use DG exclusively because its the better load out, but sword for me personally just has too many niches that I need so I don't use DG.

So in short, no, no one would leave. As long as sword was consistent and allowed good players to capitalize on bad players mistakes, then they would use sword.

@illbushido305

Thats fine, you are more than welcome to disagree but it doesn't make what I said any less true.

So what is the reason for asking to make sword mandatory? I mean Double Gunning machines will still be unbeatable with sword.
In fact I watched one of them use sword to wipe out whole enemy ship yesterday repeatedly. He did that because people getting spawn camped where complaining about double guns so he changed to sword and kept wiping them with sword spamming ROTFL.

@thathappyhat said in Remove or drastically change "Double Gun" strategy:

Affirmative, some people would leave. It's a horrible thing that people would leave and so the developers wouldn't dream of taking it out, as people would leave.

Negative, no one would leave. PvP'ers never leave when the meta changes. Developers change things all the time and no one leaves they just adapt and just use the new meta.

No one would leave.

I mean let's not pretend here, if it's the easiest meta to win, then you can't complain about it bc you can use it too. It was always about skill, this coming from a sword main, it is extremely difficult to use double gun if you're not used to it, and so can't be the easiest meta.

I mean seriously lets not pretend or spread fairy tales. It is the easiest meta to use. It is and never has been about skill. The more skill full route is the most challenging one and by far it doesn't look like anyone is using that most challenging route is it??

If so then why did PvP'ers stop using pistol/sniper and instead are using blunder/sniper??

Its because if they miss with the pistol they are pretty much screwed. I mean if you enjoy trying to make yourself believe that using the easiest meta means your good then by all means keep believing it.

You and others would still play this game even though you say "I would stop playing" because its been known throughout gaming that if the meta changes, the player base just uses the next meta. In every competitive game so please if you want to try to use made up stories then find some kids and tell them about santa clause because your argument is nonsense.

What PVP'ers want, what PVP'ers USUALLY want is to be able to practice and face challenges while being able to use a combo they're comfortable with.

What PvP'ers want and truely want is to win plain and simple. The best meta and they will use it, the cheapest meta?? They will use that until the developers say not to.

They are using the easiest meta hands down. Plain and simple. Its why they got angry when Rare tried to put a hard delay in when switching weapons taking out the sprint cancel, its also why they cried like crazy when jumping would restart the reload animation.

Its not about skill at any step. Its about winning plain and simple. Give them something they can use and beat the noobs with and they will be happy.

Should learn more before trying to talk about a subject you don't understand but its fine, you'll learn.

If the sword "just has too many niches that {you} need", then you can't complain about double gunning because you're admitting that you have some advantages.

No, I use sword because I use it for certain things I want to do and that I often do. Double gunning is still by far the easiest to use in combat and always has been.

Just sprint cancel and boom you win. I used it in Arena to get my kills and it was the easiest thing I ever had to do. Still is, however, like I mentioned I use sword for things I need because I'm usually on ship duty and need that dash. If I was on killing duty sure why not, I'd use double gunning again.

So in short, yes, many people would leave, and you are a fool for believing that sword is the only way.

So in short, no, no one would leave. You wouldn't leave either. You would throw a hissy fit because your easy go to win isn't avalaible anymore and would then go to the forums and write angry threads about how you will leave and then after a month so you'll still be threatening to leave while still playing.

Sorry broski but no PvP game has ever LOST a massive amount of players from them changing the meta. The only time they lost massive players is by changing the core combat of the game and unfortunately for you, double gunning isn't the core combat, its a loadout and a meta, and sprint canceling is an exploit.

@jadescissors32

I'm pretty sure I've explained to you like 20 times why sword should be mandatory.

The combat in this game has been balanced around double gunning to try and keep it in the game but keep combat balanced. It has failed miserably. We still have double gunning and we have unresponsive combat with hit registration not only effecting guns but swords now and we have monkey's jumping all over the place and sword tornado's and bullet storms and all that nonsense.

Combat is a joke right now plain and simple and the reason is because they keep trying to balance around something they should have just REMOVED.

@xultanis-dragon So because combat is broken making sword mandatory solves that how exactly?

I honestly dont understand what do you mean by "combat is a joke".

Apart from hit registration I have no issues with combat.
We are sinking ships pretty quickly and have no issues. I mean if combat was bad we would not be able to take on 3 galleons with a sloop and win. Clearly combat works. But we practice on TDM runs. We practice with guns and swords.

Do we use DG's, Yes. Can we wipe out ships with sword yes.

So what are we trying to solve here?

If I was Rare developer and read this forum I would be shaking my head and asking myself what the heck those people want apart from PVE only servers so they can cheese as much gold as they can.

@jadescissors32

We've discussed this multiple times and I've give you my reasons multiple times.

We've discussed how you can still double gun with the sprint cancel and how sprint cancel can be used with everything to do things faster.

I've pointed out how every single combat update has been a way to rebalance around double gunning. Every single combat change since December 2018 has been in an attempt to combat double gunning.

Double gunning exploit is still in the game due to the sprint cancel which you argued tooth and nail over but then realized IT WAS STILL THERE.

They need to just make sword mandatory so they can actually do things with the guns and sword.

Sniper is being used closed, mid, and far range.

Blunder is being used close and mid because of sniper combo

and I rarely ever see anyone using pistol.

When the sniper is being used as the close range weapon of choice in a majority of loadouts theres a problem.

You got beat because they're better than you, not because of a weapon combo.

The top level of PVPer who succeeds with DG even after all of the nerfs it's taken and how bad hitreg is is always going to beat you, even if they pull swords or just naval. They just use DG because they know they can hit their shots enough for it to be worth avoiding the RNG of a swordfight, since blocking only sometimes works, and sword spammers seem to hit you even if they're swinging the wrong direction (thanks to terrible server tickrate and large ping disparities). Sword is a buggy mess and getting into a M1 spam fight has 0 measure of skill involved in the outcome. With DG you can avoid that headache if you just don't miss.

How you can learn to win instead of complaining that other people are better than you:

1. Learn to land your own gunshots.
2. Learn to move unpredictably when getting into a position to attack someone.
3. Watch your ladders and learn to naval better. (Keep distance, land cannon shots from distance, land cannon shots on their cannons to keep advantage)