[Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion

@giiiiiinger

The loot while in the red sea is no longer in your possession. The only reason you dumped it there is to exploit the fact that we cannot access it when it is there, which is simply bad sportsmanship. You can claim it is not unsportsmanlike all you want, it is in my views just that and nothing you have stated as convinced me otherwise. The only intent of your actions are done in bad faith, as is always the case in situations where one despawns loot or uses inaccessible areas. You can claim it is not unsportsmanlike all you want, it is in my views just that.

There are many different ways to avoid combat and not engage in PvP, ways to deny your opponent the treasusue and yet there is only one tactic I call out as bad sportsmanship. Your false narrative is not holding up... if it was about me getting the loot all other tactics that results in me not getting the loot would need to be equally bad sportsmanship and yet that is not the case, I call them good sports and applaud them for beating me in those situations. You cannot claim it is about the treasure if I accept the loss in the alternative situations. You cannot determine for me what I believe, what I care about or how I view sportsmanship.

Good sportsmanship is one where one tries to create a positive outcome for themselves and if they lose allow the other side to have a positive outcome. It isn't about the sole creation of a negative outcome for the other and if the denial of a positive outcome for others is the only defining factor of the victory condition than it is considered bad sportsmanship in my books. There is no positive outcome for the crew that sinks and loses possession of the treasure, therefore it is purely reliant on the negative impact it creates for their opponents. If the goal is to simply remove themselves from a combat situation and continue with their journey, they can scuttle and allow their opponents to have a positive outcome without any battle.

Your claim that I do not care about sportsmanship, but that is the sole issue I have with the tactic. I do not have to conform to your standards nor do you have to conform to mine. I have given a clear definition what sportsmanship means to me and that is what I uphold and care about. Do as you please and you do not need to justify your actions to me. Just as I do not have to applaud your actions or give you praise for it while they are against my views. If you believe I am a bad sport for simply viewing the actions of red sea dumping loot are acts of bad sportsmanship, that is all fine by me and it won't change my mind.

@giiiiiinger said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@limend I can figure them out just fine, it's you that clearly can't. But thanks for conceding anyways.

If you were able to read dates and data they provide I wouldn't have to post these images here just to prove my point.

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peak 2 days after S1

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But yeah. Luck on your crusade :)

@giiiiiinger

For the crew that sinks there is no difference between scuttling or red sea dumping, the sole difference is the intent of creating a negative outcome for others. Which is the definition of bad sportsmanship that I gave and is why the act of the red sea is one of bad sportsmanship while scuttling is one of good sportsmanship. One is never required to fight, but the overall outcome is to be considered and unnecessary additional negative impact on your opponents is a form if bad sportsmanship, if that is the sole reason it is a positive outcome for you; then it is a text book example of the definition I gave for bad sportsmanship. It takes additional effort and time, which means you are less quick at moving in to your next Adventure which is the only positive aspect you seek to achieve.

If you believe those that are superior pirates give people the opportunity to steal their treasure when they employ other tactics to deny the loot and avoid combat, then they were simply outplaying you. I employ those tactics as I do not red sea, while I do in situations avoid combat and want to deny others from stealing the loot in my ship. If I am the superior sailor they will not have any opportunity to steal. Since you claim to be better than I am, why would employing these tactics cause you to create opportunities for me to steal from you? What you state makes no sense, unless you are not good enough of a sailor to avoid your opponents sufficiently enough once you actually have to do more than sailing in a straight line.

Is the reason you are trying to justify your actions to me and trying to convince me it isn't bad sportsmanship due to relying upon this single tactic. If my opinion is irrelevant, why are you so upset about my definition of a bad sport and have to try and define what I believe?

You do not have to conform your view to fit mine, but if you are going to repeatedly misrepresent my opinion and act as if you know me or can define why I don't condone a specific behavior it is just disrespectful. You cannot speak for me and my words are crystal clear to express where I stand. You do not need to agree or like my opinion, but my reasoning and views on sportsmanship are my own. No matter how often you claim to know my true nature or act like you know better than myself what I feel or think. You are not entitled to speak on my behalf. Nothing you say changes the fact that by my definition the people that use the red sea dump tactic are bad sports, all based on the definition I have given. I have debunked your hypothesis that it is purely about the loot and if you want to keep attacking my personal view that is just another showcase that you do not understand or know anything about me.

Be the pirate you want to be... you don't need to justify your actions to me and I don't have to condone them. You however cannot speak on my behalf or act like you have any idea of how I think or why I view things the way I do.

@giiiiiinger said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@wagstr Still no argument.

Why don't you take it to pieces then? Do me a favour and tell me exactly where I am off the mark here. I'll post it again to help..

At some point I have no doubt there will be the sort of changes you ask for but only when they need to do it and they are a million miles from needing to do it at this point in time, plus it would be a huge gamble because it could drive the majority of the core playerbase away. (You know, those who do quests while keeping either an opportunistic or watchful eye out). The ever present threat of other players is the true spice of the seas in most peoples opinions.

You even state you would probably play 50/50 on PvE/PvEvP servers so I guess you would do all of your voyages in the safety of PvE then maybe nip over when you want some PvP to the Adventure servers. Are you seriously telling me you can not see that a lot of players would increasingly do the same as the balance shifted more and more towards PvP on the Adventure servers and it would, in a relatively short amount of time, end up with a basic choice of PvE or PvP at the menu screen? Either you haven't thought it through hard enough or you don't know your fellow humans very well.

Knock yourself out... Debunk me... Or is it you that actually has no argument?

Edit: I'll add this..

I would just like to continue as I have done since I started playing and do quests with the 50/50 chance I will encounter an aggressive crew whilst having the tools in my chest to avoid them if I choose to with a little luck.

With the change you suggest it's either PvE only which would become mind numbingly boring after a few weeks or one huge massive Arena with hardly any questing. The game just changes completely.. It would have to be like 3 ships per server to feel anywhere like the same.. and hence it obviously still wouldn't.

Bringing the pvp faction into adventure mode is not a good thing , what i mean is putting supplies in adventure will encourage pvp but will not make it a pvp -pve adventure but keep in mind to stay at the same range where you are implementing pvp stuff into pve world and that's not good ( imagine with me,,,,, adding more creatures like maybe the mist you can add a creature inside the mist or skeletons that invade your ship in mist that is how to make the adventure mode more pve ,,,,or make an event that needs 3-2 ships to start it or to finish it ) also as a suggestion you can add a negotiation area in the seas where you can have like 10-20 seconds to prevent ships from shooting at you to force them to negotiate within limited time in a specific area of the seas of thieves like a circle or triangle area that is highlighted that also will encourage pve not pvp in adventure mode , in the other hand thats why the game has arena to test you pvp and improve it so i know that you don't want to make changes in arena and it could be way better if you made updates on it but also make it clear of not bringing actual pvp into adventure mode >

@dirbas

Rare has introduced both new PvE and PvP elements to the game, for the majority PvE elements as when it first released it has a lack of PvE content (which it was heavily criticized for). The addition of PVP elements is part of the PvEvP experience. While it is true that these things promote both aspects of play and might shift the balance in a specific way for a short or longer time. By introducing aspects to both elements the balance is a consistent state of flux where they monitor and try to create the ultimate PvEvP open world pirate adventure. One should never expect the world to shift entirely into one direction, as it is a PvEvP game and both elements are important to promote and encourage.

The ability to start negotiations with a grace period before engaging in combat has been introduced during the hungering deep with the introduction of the speaking horn. This horn can be amplify the messages sent to another crew in order to be able to start the negotiations from a safe distance. Do not line your ship to their broadside to avoid long shots and start speaking through the horn, this will provide you with thee time to initiate a negotiation before shots can be fired and is not limited to a specific section of the map. You never know how the others will respond.

The new Glitterbeard story line has introduced a chapter in which it is required to gather with 8 different pirates to complete it. Therefore they have recently introduced such an event into the world where multiple crews must work together to be able to achieve it. I wish you all the luck in finding the crews to complete this story, I heard it is a magnificent experience.

@giiiiiinger said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@gunner-rat Again, I never said chasing was against the rules? So I'm still not sure what your point is.

Hi again,

Yes you are right - you do seem confused, you might want to read back through your replies - then you might get it. I know you are fighting on a few fronts on this thread and are getting fairly mauled in the process, even by mods who have called out your behaviour, but sure, I know that and nor is spawn camping players. The game is a shared sandbox after all.

You're still claiming to be the majority though? Which is just blatantly false.

No you are claiming that a majority of people would either be ok with PvE only servers, or are indifferent. I am saying that going by the evidence - most people are ok with the game how it is. The evidence being that most people are not on this forum whining...like you. The majority of players are getting on and playing the game as it was intended to be played.

The rest of you are coming onto the forum and moaning that you want a PvE only option because PvP twiggers you. That's your problem, no one else's.

Except rises in player count after major updates are temporary, just like they were after season 1. In a month the player count will be back down, most likely lower than it was before given that the peak player count of the season 2 update was lower than the season 1 update. This is pretty much just basic statistics.

Ah ok so now you move the goalposts. First you say there hasn't been an increase and now you concede there is, but because it is only temporary it doesn't count lol. Cool mental gymnastics there. Others have also disproved your claims and quite frankly, your argument looks weaker and messier every time you post.

Most of those players are not coming on the forum to cry for them not to add PVE either.

No, but ALL of the posts on the forum that ask for PvE only come from...dun dun duuuun - "crying" PvE players. Most players are most likely not coming onto the forum at all, but most of the moaning is done by those who feel entitled to have the Devs change the games core identity.

I mean, usually when someone just randomly pulls a claim like that out of no where, it's most likely projection.

Lol just keep repeating the same thing. We'll come to your own projections shortly. ;)

People don't deserve to have progression if you don't get a chance at stealing it from them? What an egocentric position. Why is it perfectly fine for you to steal other peoples' rewards but it's "cheese" for them to get to turn them in themselves without worrying about it being stolen? Either both are cheese or neither are. They're both gaining progression with 0 risk.

Egocentric...interesting projection there lol. I think you have massively misunderstood again. People do not deserve progression and loot in a safe space PvE server in no way. It's not fair on those who had to grind their way through the actual game in the way it is meant to be played under a constant threat of other people as detailed in the code of conduct and by Joe the Dev.

Perhaps you will dispute this too so first you might want to check out the code of conduct - which states that the proper way to play is partly about being "a good sport. Sea of Thieves is a pirate game, and stealth, stealing and battles are all part of the fun. All pirates on the seas accept that, but be a good sportsman in both victory and loss. "

Secondly, you might want to check out what Joe the Dev said: "People attacking other player's ship, and people stealing items off players and making their getaway and stuff, it's obviously, that's absolutely acceptable as part of Sea of Thieves, it's a shared world, its always been a shared world, it's always been the intent that there is gonna be risks when you are out there on the seas. And so that kind of player behaviour is absolutely within the spirit of Sea of Thieves."

Or have you forgotten your own words which acknowledges that there is a mutual risk:

It's not my problem if you can't get it. I'm under no obligation to let you have a chance at my loot. Again, nothing "unsportsmanlike" about it, nor do you actually care about any of that, given that you're only crying about the fact that you can't get the loot. You lost, you were outsailed, you don't deserve or get the loot. Stop being a bad sportsman and accept your defeat.

Now, we were talking about projections...It seems everyone is always "crying" with you...in every reply to me you mention that word...and to others too:

@limend Sorry you think the game should revolve around your ego. Good luck on your crying.

@cotu42 You didn't sink my ship, and you didn't get my loot. You lost and I won because I was the better sailor. Keep crying about it.

@cotu42 If I outsail you by dumping my loot out of your reach before you can sink me, then yes, you lost and I won. Keep crying about it.

@cotu42 There's nothing "bad sportsmanship" about it. The only bad sport is you for crying about the fact that you failed to sink me and take my loot. The one getting laughed at is also you, as you seethe powerlessly from afar unable to steal my loot.

@cotu42 You're the one crying about it and being such a sore loser and bad sport, so of course people are going to make it about you.

@cotu42 Once again, it's blatant you don't care whatsoever about "sportsmanship", you're just a bad sportsman crying that you got outsailed and failed to steal loot.

@cotu42 Except nothing I said is false. There is infinite loot in the game for you to collect. Me dumping in the red sea does nothing to prevent you from going somewhere else to get loot. You don't need to cry so much just because you are upset that you got outsailed and failed to steal my loot.

@cotu42 You're the only one lying about anything here bud. Your "moral disapproval" is irrelevant and meaningless. There is nothing whatosever that indicates sailing into the red sea as breaking any rules, and it's no less "sportsmanlike" than chasing someone all the way to the red sea to try to steal their loot or scuttling your ship. Take a big whiff of that copium and keep crying that you got outsailed and failed to steal loot.

@cotu42 you're fine with tactics that give you a chance to steal the loot, because the loot is what you actually care about. This blatantly has nothing to do with "sportsmanship", you're perfectly fine with the exact same scenario if it gets you loot. The one constant in your crying is you not having a chance to get the loot.

As you can see, there is a pattern emerging. You prolifically use the word "crying" in many of your comments, are you upset? Do you often cry when things aren't going your way? You know there is no shame in crying. Nothing wrong with that at all, let it all out but you always seem to mention it obsessively which is an indication of emotional turmoil. Seriously, maybe take some time off here if you are struggling.

In the same way you claim to have out sailed someone and them not deserving your loot - nor do you deserve loot without risk that you also take lol. The server as it stands provides mutual risk. I do not deserve to simply level up and get loot without risk, nor do you or anyone else and you actually agree with me here by stating that "you don't deserve or get the loot" - uh oh...another contradiction for you.

If you want to PVP, cool, play on a PVP server. I see no reason why players who want to PVE shouldn't be allowed to play on PVE servers. Do you even have any actual argument against PVE servers other than "REEEEEE ME WANT TO STEAL YOU NO GET TO PROGRESS UNLESS ME CAN STEAL FROM YOU"?

Nah lol. I'll just play the game...as it was intended to be played...on a normal PvPvE server like the majority of people that play the game do. The game as it stands is fine and owes you, or me for that matter - nothing more than it has promised to provide in that of it's game description. Your logic is "I BOUGHT A GAME AND REALISED IT IS TOO HARD - CHANGE IT NOW SO I CAN FEEL LESS INFERIOR", the burden of convincing us to see your idea differently is on you, not the other way around since we are ok with the status quo, but you have done a poor job of this and seem to only be having the opposite effect on people by making them even more hostile to your ideas. Good job.

Again, in your own words though "you don't deserve or get the loot. Stop being a bad sportsman and accept your defeat." and yet you seem terrible at taking your own advice and you are allowed to decide what others deserve...but then try to pull me up for saying PvE only servers don't deserve loot and progress...ok then.

You also wrote that "None of what you've posted is an objective or logically founded argument for how PvE servers would be harmful to the game." - Pot calling the kettle black really. You posted a load of subjective reviews and now pull the "I oNlY AccEpT oBjEcTiVe LoGiC aS EvIdEnCe" Card...you don't have the moral or rational high ground here and are full of contradictions that others and myself have pointed out.

But here's some objective facts which I know you like - your arguments are not that popular here going by the replies and you've even been called out by mods for your poorly worded arguments too which relied on making derogatory comments. You also seem to be obsessed with crying. If you really think you are presenting a rational, objective and logical argument among your dissonant replies that you think should be taken seriously, then you are quite frankly painting yourself as delusional and have no understanding of what those words actually mean.

Cheers

@cotu42 i do agree with you on all points thank you for information , but as i can see the pve faction should has the majority focus in the shadow of pvp because it's adventure mode as it classified .

@giiiiiinger said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@gunner-rat said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

I think it's clear that a majority would sensibly oppose this move

No? The people crying about the prospect of PVE servers are a very vocal minority of PVP only players who rely on stealing other peoples' loot and don't want to play on servers with other 0 risk PVPers who just PVP rush while having no loot of their own. The actual majority of people sensibly either support PVE servers or are indifferent.

Crying , crying everyone who doesn’t agree with everything you have to say is crying lol.

Where is your proof that the majority of people support PvE servers? Do not answer with anything other than real proof please, no opinions. I’m actually interested in where you got this from.

@shadeparade5082 said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@zkuggi9579 i would play the hell out of a PvE server and still jump into a PvP server for fun with friends.

And this is exactly why PvE servers are a bad idea.

@giiiiiinger said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@wagstr None of what you've posted is an objective or logically founded argument for how PvE servers would be harmful to the game.

I'm posting reviews because they blatantly disprove the claim of the reviews not sharing pro-PVE sentiment. But I can see how something that so clearly proves you wrong might be annoying.

There are 100k reviews though. You going through and picking a handful that support your position isn’t proof of anything. The reviews are “very” positive which would seem to show players are generally happy with their purchase.

@combatxkitty said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@giiiiiinger said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@wagstr None of what you've posted is an objective or logically founded argument for how PvE servers would be harmful to the game.

I'm posting reviews because they blatantly disprove the claim of the reviews not sharing pro-PVE sentiment. But I can see how something that so clearly proves you wrong might be annoying.

There are 100k reviews though. You going through and picking a handful that support your position isn’t proof of anything. The reviews are “very” positive which would seem to show players are generally happy with their purchase.

I am one of the "very happies" but, not going to lie, if a Scavenger or honest Reaper is chasing me down and I know I can run my ship into the red out of pure spite (The treasure in my possession isn't mine until it is sold but, it isn't their either if they can't catch me) I would be steering into the shroud and sinking it; The alternative is being spawn killed into infinity where I would have to scupper and restart anyway - may as well go out with a "neener-neener" :P

@giiiiiinger said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@combatxkitty Where is your proof that the majority of players oppose PvE servers?

Keep crying lol.

Im not the one making grand claims here. You are. So I see you have no proof and are just talking out of your bottom.

I could say Rare has stated a few months ago on twitter that there is NO PvE server in discussions so keep crying but I am too mature for that.

Anyways since I am a mature person who enjoys mature discussion which I clearly will not get with you I say good day and carry on with others willing to entertain you because I sure am not.

@rabbitsshadow said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@combatxkitty said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@giiiiiinger said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@wagstr None of what you've posted is an objective or logically founded argument for how PvE servers would be harmful to the game.

I'm posting reviews because they blatantly disprove the claim of the reviews not sharing pro-PVE sentiment. But I can see how something that so clearly proves you wrong might be annoying.

There are 100k reviews though. You going through and picking a handful that support your position isn’t proof of anything. The reviews are “very” positive which would seem to show players are generally happy with their purchase.

I am one of the "very happies" but, not going to lie, if a Scavenger or honest Reaper is chasing me down and I know I can run my ship into the red out of pure spite (The treasure in my possession isn't mine until it is sold but, it isn't their either if they can't catch me) I would be steering into the shroud and sinking it; The alternative is being spawn killed into infinity where I would have to scupper and restart anyway - may as well go out with a "neener-neener" :P

Ok , well I never said I was against red seaing. If that's what you want to do then do it. Your ship and your decision.

That is great though you are happy with the game. It is a fun and unique experience for sure.

@giiiiiinger

So easy to say that isn't it. Cop out.. You have literally no argument.

@giiiiiinger said in [Mega Thread] PvP and PvE Playstyle Discussion:

@cotu42 So, yes, it's just the loot that you care about, since that's literally the only difference. Again, nothing "bad sportsmanship" about it, you're just mad that you lost and failed to steal the loot after getting outsailed.

I'm not upset about anything. I'm simply explaining how you're blatantly and utterly wrong.

Your hypothesis on my reasoning has already been debunked above by me providing multiple situations, while only one is required, where the end result is that I lose loot (drive by selling) in which I do not call out others to being bad sports, but good sports instead. Therefore your theory that I am just mad because I failed to steal loot has been disproven, as custom in the scientific method only a single case against it is enough to disprove it.

My standard for sportsmanship is based on the fact that actions even to win especially in a video game should never rely on the inflicting as much unnecessary harm as I can upon my opponents; if the act does not contribute to an objective tangible net positive within the game world there is no need for one to inflict that damage upon their enemies. It is my personal belief and you claiming to know better than me how I view gaming, sportsmanship and loot is extremely entitled - we do not share the same belief system thank god. If I believe something is done in bad faith, it is bad sportsmanship and that is exactly what red sea dumping loot is in my view. There is no objectively in game benefit for those choosing to do this tactic, as the crew is gaining nothing from it that is tangible and therefore it is bad sportsmanship.